Elven genetics - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elianna · 03-07-2004, 05:34 PM

I've been wondering about nick-pickies of elven genetics. My main questions are these:

1) Is it possible that Arwen have the midnight hair of the books?
I know Elrond had midnight hair, but what about Celebrían? Her mom was blonde w/ silver, and her dad had silver hair. Let's first assume that silver hair isn't a sign of age w/ elves, but a color of hair you can be born with.
This would make Celebrían's hair very lightly colored. I know that dark hair is dominate over light hair, but hair is a multipy allele trait. This means that the genes will mix together making a shade of color, not just one or the other. So if Arwen's dad was dark haired, and her mom was light haired, then Arwen would have brown hair, not midnight black.

2) Elves have gestational periods of almost exactly one year, but humans' gestational period is around 9 months (if all goes well). So how long did Arwen carry Eldarion?

3) And finally: We call ours teens (because we come of age at 18 or 21), Hobbits call theirs tweens (because they come of age at 33), what about elves? They don't come of age until 50. They would be in about their 30's and 40's at adolesence.

Got any ideas?

Osse · 03-07-2004, 10:51 PM

I have no idea on most of these points and have given very little thought to em to be truthful. However you stated that hair colour is often a mix... due to the fact it's controlled my multiple alleles. However, if the allele is dominant, its trait shall be dominant. Sure it often turns out that say if my father had dark hair and my mother had light hair, i'd have a mixture of the both. However, we can see that if an allele is dominant, it can cause the colour to be exactly (or only slightly different) the same... so arwen certainly could have inherited Elrond's black hair. But erm... who said that genetics would have the same behaviour in ME? hehe

Keep up the thought if it tickles your fancy!

Regards,

Osse

Theron Bugtussle · 03-08-2004, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elianna
We call ours teens (because we come of age at 18 or 21), Hobbits call theirs tweens (because they come of age at 33), what about elves? They don't come of age until 50. They would be in about their 30's and 40's at adolesence.

I don't know what the elves call them, however, in the Southeastern U.S., they would call them young'uns, which is a contraction of "young ones"!

As in, "Just look at 'em young'uns playin' with those orcs from up the holler!"

Finwe · 03-08-2004, 07:14 PM

Having dark hair and marrying someone with light hair wouldn't necessarily give your child an intermediate hair color. Sometimes children have genes that are codominant and sometimes the dominant genes shows in the phenotype. It really just depends.

Gorwingel · 03-09-2004, 12:03 AM

Well if one parent had blue eyes, and the other had brown. That does not mean that the child would have blue-brown eyes. Now I am not an expert in genetics (my experience mostly consists of short lessons in biology and chemistry classes), so I do not know much, but Arwen would not have to have blonde hairs in her hair. And I also think that we have to also consider that elves are kind of special, and Arwen was specifically a very special elf. So I think her hair color was on purpose in a way.

Am I making sense?

piosenniel · 03-09-2004, 12:19 PM

Here is an interesting reference on Hair Color Genetics for Tolkien's Elves:

Hair Color

Legolas · 03-09-2004, 02:56 PM

Quote:

2) Elves have gestational periods of almost exactly one year, but humans' gestational period is around 9 months (if all goes well). So how long did Arwen carry Eldarion?

9 months. Arwen wasn't an elf.

symestreem · 03-09-2004, 03:46 PM

Arwen may not have been an elf by doom, but she was an elf if we are talking about biology and genetics. I doubt her body suddenly rearranged itself when she became mortal. One of elven blood who chooses to become mortal does not lose their elven physical traits, I believe. Look at the royal line of Numenor, Gondor and Arnor.

Amarie of the Vanyar · 03-09-2004, 03:59 PM

Biologically, Arwen wasn't an elf, either, she was a half-elf

I don't remember whether Tolkien mentioned anywhere the gestational period for half-elven, but it must be somewhere between 9 and 12 months

Frodo Baggins · 03-09-2004, 06:35 PM

Very interesting article on the genetics of Elven hair colours. However, the author failed to note that ALL children of Luthien, even down through the kings of Numenor and Gondor are dark haired no matter what dominant and recessive genes their non-Luthein-descendant parent has.

Finwe · 03-09-2004, 07:54 PM

Where did you get that from, if you don't mind me asking. We have no way of knowing that all of her descendants had dark hair. We only know that a few did.

Elianna · 03-09-2004, 08:03 PM

That was a great article piosenniel. Thanks a ton! It gladdens me that others have thought of this in such depth.

So my question of hair color is answered, but what about the other two?

No matter which doom Arwen chose, biologically, she was an elf. And Aragorn is human, no matter how you slice it.

And something in me revolts at thinking of Elves saying "young'uns". How about ertithin "little ones"?

Lalwendë · 03-10-2004, 01:59 PM

About question 3, maybe young elves could be called 'elvings'?

Frodo Baggins · 03-10-2004, 07:24 PM

Ah I believe that's "elflings".

Elianna · 03-11-2004, 04:04 PM

Right, elflings.

But surely the Speakers have their own spiffy word for that oh so memorable time of life.

Finwe · 03-13-2004, 11:50 AM

In Quenya:

baby --> lapsë

child --> hìna

That is the closest that I could find. I don't have an English-Sindarin list, so I think that we can safely assume that, in Quenya, Elves used these terms to refer to babies or children.

Lalwendë · 03-14-2004, 11:03 AM

OK, this is a bit clumsy in translation , but how about 'Eldasen'? I think '-sen' means children? Or, young elves could be called something poetic - doesn't 'vanimar' mean 'beautiful ones'? Going along these lines then 'Ertithin' would be a good choice.

I still like elvings though, it suggests young eels...an elf could say 'well, back in my elvinghood it was all trees and fields around here'. Perhaps.

symestreem · 03-14-2004, 01:44 PM

Elvinghood suggests ents to me. But they are close, in that they are both peaceful and in tune with the natural world.

Legolas · 04-05-2004, 01:10 PM

Quote:

No matter which doom Arwen chose, biologically, she was an elf.

As stated above, biologically she was *not* an elf. She was in no way an elf really, other than having a similar course of aging until she was forced to decide. The original decree was that any being with any amount of blood was mortal. A decision to be immortal would've been the departure from how things had "naturally" occurred before - not a decision to be mortal.

symestreem · 04-05-2004, 02:02 PM

So the question is, would Arwen have died even if she accompanied Elrond to Valinor? That seems the only logical outcome of Legolas's argument. Otherwise, it must be argued that Arwen had no mortal blood in her, or that Elrond's decision to be an elf negated this mortal blood.
When we say 'mortal', are we talking biologically or doomically?

On the subject of elven genetics:
Elves and humans can produce fertile children, so that means that they must have the same number of chromosomes. I'm not a genetics expert, but that seems to indicate that elves and humans are biologically closely related, and that elves merely have more favorable expressed traits than humans. However, since they always express these favorable traits, and never recessive ones, this indicates that someone (Eru) made it this way on purpose.

Legolas · 04-05-2004, 03:10 PM

The proposition that she would die in Valinor does not apply - if she chose immortality, Eru himself would've changed her fundamental kind. That is exactly the point.

Elianna · 04-05-2004, 05:24 PM

Legolas: Oooooooookay, after several minutes I think I finally understand what you're saying. Thanks.

symestreem · 04-05-2004, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legolas

The proposition that she would die in Valinor does not apply - if she chose immortality, Eru himself would've changed her fundamental kind. That is exactly the point.

But what was her fundamental kind? Was she biologically elven or was she biologically 23/32 elven? In the Appendices, she is listed as an Eldar.

03-07-2004, 05:34 PM	#1
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Elven genetics I've been wondering about nick-pickies of elven genetics. My main questions are these: 1) Is it possible that Arwen have the midnight hair of the books? I know Elrond had midnight hair, but what about Celebrían? Her mom was blonde w/ silver, and her dad had silver hair. Let's first assume that silver hair isn't a sign of age w/ elves, but a color of hair you can be born with. This would make Celebrían's hair very lightly colored. I know that dark hair is dominate over light hair, but hair is a multipy allele trait. This means that the genes will mix together making a shade of color, not just one or the other. So if Arwen's dad was dark haired, and her mom was light haired, then Arwen would have brown hair, not midnight black. 2) Elves have gestational periods of almost exactly one year, but humans' gestational period is around 9 months (if all goes well). So how long did Arwen carry Eldarion? 3) And finally: We call ours teens (because we come of age at 18 or 21), Hobbits call theirs tweens (because they come of age at 33), what about elves? They don't come of age until 50. They would be in about their 30's and 40's at adolesence. Got any ideas? __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

03-07-2004, 10:51 PM	#2
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	I have no idea on most of these points and have given very little thought to em to be truthful. However you stated that hair colour is often a mix... due to the fact it's controlled my multiple alleles. However, if the allele is dominant, its trait shall be dominant. Sure it often turns out that say if my father had dark hair and my mother had light hair, i'd have a mixture of the both. However, we can see that if an allele is dominant, it can cause the colour to be exactly (or only slightly different) the same... so arwen certainly could have inherited Elrond's black hair. But erm... who said that genetics would have the same behaviour in ME? hehe Keep up the thought if it tickles your fancy! Regards, Osse __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

03-08-2004, 07:14 PM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Having dark hair and marrying someone with light hair wouldn't necessarily give your child an intermediate hair color. Sometimes children have genes that are codominant and sometimes the dominant genes shows in the phenotype. It really just depends. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

03-09-2004, 12:03 AM	#5
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	Well if one parent had blue eyes, and the other had brown. That does not mean that the child would have blue-brown eyes. Now I am not an expert in genetics (my experience mostly consists of short lessons in biology and chemistry classes), so I do not know much, but Arwen would not have to have blonde hairs in her hair. And I also think that we have to also consider that elves are kind of special, and Arwen was specifically a very special elf. So I think her hair color was on purpose in a way. Am I making sense? __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

03-09-2004, 03:59 PM	#9
Amarie of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Valinor Posts: 215	Biologically, Arwen wasn't an elf, either, she was a half-elf I don't remember whether Tolkien mentioned anywhere the gestational period for half-elven, but it must be somewhere between 9 and 12 months __________________ But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

03-09-2004, 12:19 PM	#6
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Here is an interesting reference on Hair Color Genetics for Tolkien's Elves: Hair Color

03-09-2004, 03:46 PM	#8
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	Arwen may not have been an elf by doom, but she was an elf if we are talking about biology and genetics. I doubt her body suddenly rearranged itself when she became mortal. One of elven blood who chooses to become mortal does not lose their elven physical traits, I believe. Look at the royal line of Numenor, Gondor and Arnor.

03-09-2004, 06:35 PM	#10
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Very interesting article on the genetics of Elven hair colours. However, the author failed to note that ALL children of Luthien, even down through the kings of Numenor and Gondor are dark haired no matter what dominant and recessive genes their non-Luthein-descendant parent has. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

03-09-2004, 07:54 PM	#11
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Where did you get that from, if you don't mind me asking. We have no way of knowing that all of her descendants had dark hair. We only know that a few did. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

03-09-2004, 08:03 PM	#12
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	That was a great article piosenniel. Thanks a ton! It gladdens me that others have thought of this in such depth. So my question of hair color is answered, but what about the other two? No matter which doom Arwen chose, biologically, she was an elf. And Aragorn is human, no matter how you slice it. And something in me revolts at thinking of Elves saying "young'uns". How about ertithin "little ones"? __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

03-10-2004, 01:59 PM	#13
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	About question 3, maybe young elves could be called 'elvings'?

03-10-2004, 07:24 PM	#14
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	Ah I believe that's "elflings". __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

03-11-2004, 04:04 PM	#15
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Right, elflings. But surely the Speakers have their own spiffy word for that oh so memorable time of life. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

03-13-2004, 11:50 AM	#16
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	In Quenya: baby --> lapsë child --> hìna That is the closest that I could find. I don't have an English-Sindarin list, so I think that we can safely assume that, in Quenya, Elves used these terms to refer to babies or children. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. Last edited by Finwe; 03-14-2004 at 01:46 PM.

03-14-2004, 11:03 AM	#17
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	OK, this is a bit clumsy in translation , but how about 'Eldasen'? I think '-sen' means children? Or, young elves could be called something poetic - doesn't 'vanimar' mean 'beautiful ones'? Going along these lines then 'Ertithin' would be a good choice. I still like elvings though, it suggests young eels...an elf could say 'well, back in my elvinghood it was all trees and fields around here'. Perhaps.

03-14-2004, 01:44 PM	#18
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	Elvinghood suggests ents to me. But they are close, in that they are both peaceful and in tune with the natural world.

04-05-2004, 02:02 PM	#20
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	So the question is, would Arwen have died even if she accompanied Elrond to Valinor? That seems the only logical outcome of Legolas's argument. Otherwise, it must be argued that Arwen had no mortal blood in her, or that Elrond's decision to be an elf negated this mortal blood. When we say 'mortal', are we talking biologically or doomically? On the subject of elven genetics: Elves and humans can produce fertile children, so that means that they must have the same number of chromosomes. I'm not a genetics expert, but that seems to indicate that elves and humans are biologically closely related, and that elves merely have more favorable expressed traits than humans. However, since they always express these favorable traits, and never recessive ones, this indicates that someone (Eru) made it this way on purpose.

04-05-2004, 03:10 PM	#21
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	The proposition that she would die in Valinor does not apply - if she chose immortality, Eru himself would've changed her fundamental kind. That is exactly the point. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

04-05-2004, 05:24 PM	#22
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Legolas: Oooooooookay, after several minutes I think I finally understand what you're saying. Thanks. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.