help me understand - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

nynnd1 · 03-04-2004, 09:48 AM

can any of the learned peoples of the barrowdowns help me clear up if tolkiens middle earth is supposed to link in with our earth. is it perhaps before the time of even dinosaurs far back in the past, or is it something to come far in the future. or is it same time different planet, or somewhere underscoverd on oue own earth. where oe when is it. HELP ME!!!!

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 03-04-2004, 10:10 AM

I am not learned, but I guess I can help a little.

Prof T writes the LOTR and the Silmarillion as though he is a chronicler of the long gone past events. I think he assumed the position of a scribe who somehow found a scribt of ancient text written in Ancient Elven Language, and translated it into plain English.

But I don't suppose Prof T is an archeologist by any chance, so the LOTR and the Silmarillion is pure fiction. Hope that would help you sleep easier at night!

NightKnight · 03-04-2004, 02:10 PM

I think it's supposed to have happened a few thousand years ago. If you read Book of Lost Tales you'll find a connection between Tol Eressea and England, I think it was.

Firefoot · 03-04-2004, 02:52 PM

Yes, there was a connection, but I thought JRRT abandoned those ideas. There was definitely a connection when he first started writing but I thought it "evolved" into something that wasn't connected, because the Silmarillion and UT both come after the Book of Lost Tales and there wasn't any mention of a connection in those.

Knight of Gondor · 03-04-2004, 09:27 PM

As I understand it, Tolkien was disappointed with his nation's complete lack of fantastic culture and history, myth, legend, etc., and decided to create his own for his country, even if it was fiction. It wound up corresponding to his works with Middle-Earth, and then I think Middle-Earth and eventually the events surrounding The War of the Ring took over. I'm not exactly sure how the Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2 can correspond, because they chronicle the story of Arda's creation from beginning pretty much to "current" times, at least the ancient times where our history takes over. Still, many of the legends survived and made their way into The Silmarillion, which was the final history product for Middle-Earth, which, I believe, Tolkien finally decided was actually a different world. I'm not exceedingly educated on the matter myself, but that is my take on it.

bilbo_baggins · 03-05-2004, 09:51 AM

I do believe that Tolkien was merely writing an elaborate fictional fantasy world, full of legends that he could write. He did not neccessarily create LOTR, Sil., UF, or Lost Tales to say what happened, persay; it was really just because he wanted to write a story, as he says in his Foreword of the Second Edition LOTR.

***Sharkû*** · 03-05-2004, 02:29 PM

Tolkien gave a radio interview for BBC 4 in 1971. The following is a question he was asked and his answer:

"'G: It seemed to me that Middle-earth was in a sense as you say this world we live in but at a different era. '

Tolkien: 'No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes.' "

rutslegolas · 03-06-2004, 07:16 AM

ya i agree.
but i have another question.
the middle-earth was it fictional or is it geographically similar to any country?

Kransha · 03-06-2004, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rutslegolas
ya i agree.
but i have another question.
the middle-earth was it fictional or is it geographically similar to any country?

Yes, Arda's lands have modern parallels. Study a good map and they'll stick right out. I believe ME is the area of Europe, Harad is Africa, the Sun Lands are America, Rhun is Asia, etc, etc, and so forth.

nynnd1 · 03-12-2004, 08:37 AM

just as i thought kransha.

There are big similarities between the two

bilbo_baggins · 03-12-2004, 09:20 AM

So, Kransha, if ME is Europe and Harad is Africa, is the Anduin the Meditteranean Sea?

And would the North Sea - above Germany - , would that be were Beleriand sunk?

Noxomanus · 03-13-2004, 05:43 AM

^^No. The Shire was meant to be England and Beleriand was to the north-west of the Grey Havens,wich were to the northwest of the Shire themself. It's possible the Grey Havens are meant to lie in Ireland. In that case, Beleriand lay in the North Atlantic, roughly between North America,Ireland,Greenland and Iceland. Wich makes me ponder...could Iceland be meant as a surviving part of Beleriand?

Firefoot · 03-13-2004, 08:11 AM

Originally, it wasn't the Shire that was meant to be England but Tol Eressëa. There is a lot about this in the Book of Lost Tales 1&2.

bilbo_baggins: Not all of the parts in Middle-earth correspond to parts of our world. There are just similarities. Not too long ago, this map was posted on a thread. Go here to see it. This should clear up some of your questions.

haltred · 03-25-2004, 05:01 PM

I do not believe that JRRT had spefic places in mind for each place in Middle Earth. Though one might think Shire = England and so forth. BUT I think Tolkien was reaching back to the legends of most of Europe . Those of Roland , of the Viking sagas , of the Wagnerian ring cycle, those of Arthur and Alfred.
And the lands could be anywhere in Europe but I don't think he planned it that way. I think it is what our imaginaton makes it.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-25-2004, 08:47 PM

Quote:

The Shire was meant to be England

To be more specific ...

Quote:

'The Shire' is based on rural England and not any other country in the world - least perhaps of any in Europe on Holland, which is topographically wholly dissimilar.

(From The Letters of JRR Tolkien - Letter 190)

And getting even more specific:

Quote:

It is in fact more or less a Warwickshire village of about the period of the Diamond Jubilee ...

(From Letter 178)

The village in question being Sarehole, where Tolkien spent his early years after returning with his mother from South Africa in 1895, and the said Diamond Jubilee being that of Queen Victoria in 1897.

Olorin_TLA · 04-26-2004, 03:37 PM

Yeah, but it wasn't meant to be physcially in the same place as England. ;) Along the same latitude though, to account for the same climate.

The Third Age of Middle-earth is meant to end at some (imho, an almost-touchable-yet-just-unreachable) point before the dawn of recorded history, so says Tolkien. He gave an exmaple of around 6,000 years ago, as back then that was when "recorded history" "began" in depth...however, that was just an example, bascially, LotR is set before, but not hugely before, our earliest history, so whenever a new archaelogical find is found, just shift the date of LotR back a bit. ;)

EDIT: Yikes! I accidnetally said that Men arose 150,000 years ago. This was a MISTAKE. It's roughly 57,000 according to HoMe X (which puts each "Year" in the SIlmarillion before the rising of the Sun as being 144 sun-years long...and also places the birth of Man all the way back to slightly before the Great March)...somehow I'd got "c.50,000" mixed up with 150,000...hmm.

Also, Tolkien later wrote that perhaps he could have made the geography of LotR fit better with Europe's, had he had that specifically in mind at the time of writing. (Note how the land around the icy Cape of Forochel has a similar shape to Scandanavia). Frnakl,y though, letting the sotry and geography design themselves allowed for greater freedom, and a better LotR...for a start, there would have been no Mordor as we know it! :eek:

Isowen · 08-08-2004, 02:13 PM

I have heard many rumors, and questions about this. The most popular one seems to be that Middle-Earth is in fact based on England. I am not what you call learned but I do have the answer.
Middle- Earth is not an imaginary place. It is Europe. The name Middle-Earth comes from the Middle-English term Middel- erthe which is the name Europeans called their land hundreds of years ago. As Tolkien says in the Prologue to LOTR, those features on his maps do not match those of Modern Europe, because it has changed over time but there's no doubt about a few points of origin.
To answer your other question, Tolkien estimated that Frodo's quest to destroy the ring took place about 6000 years ago, by our calender.
Just a quick fact to finish off; The 'black land' of Mordor is located where you now find the Black Sea.
But I may be wrong

03-04-2004, 09:48 AM	#1
nynnd1 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: england Posts: 64	help me understand can any of the learned peoples of the barrowdowns help me clear up if tolkiens middle earth is supposed to link in with our earth. is it perhaps before the time of even dinosaurs far back in the past, or is it something to come far in the future. or is it same time different planet, or somewhere underscoverd on oue own earth. where oe when is it. HELP ME!!!!

03-04-2004, 02:10 PM	#3
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,690	I think it's supposed to have happened a few thousand years ago. If you read Book of Lost Tales you'll find a connection between Tol Eressea and England, I think it was. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

03-04-2004, 09:27 PM	#5
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	As I understand it, Tolkien was disappointed with his nation's complete lack of fantastic culture and history, myth, legend, etc., and decided to create his own for his country, even if it was fiction. It wound up corresponding to his works with Middle-Earth, and then I think Middle-Earth and eventually the events surrounding The War of the Ring took over. I'm not exactly sure how the Book of Lost Tales 1 & 2 can correspond, because they chronicle the story of Arda's creation from beginning pretty much to "current" times, at least the ancient times where our history takes over. Still, many of the legends survived and made their way into The Silmarillion, which was the final history product for Middle-Earth, which, I believe, Tolkien finally decided was actually a different world. I'm not exceedingly educated on the matter myself, but that is my take on it. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

03-05-2004, 09:51 AM	#6
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	I do believe that Tolkien was merely writing an elaborate fictional fantasy world, full of legends that he could write. He did not neccessarily create LOTR, Sil., UF, or Lost Tales to say what happened, persay; it was really just because he wanted to write a story, as he says in his Foreword of the Second Edition LOTR. __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

03-06-2004, 07:16 AM	#8
rutslegolas Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In Elven Lands of India Posts: 533	ya i agree. but i have another question. the middle-earth was it fictional or is it geographically similar to any country? __________________ If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom.

03-04-2004, 10:10 AM	#2
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	I am not learned, but I guess I can help a little. Prof T writes the LOTR and the Silmarillion as though he is a chronicler of the long gone past events. I think he assumed the position of a scribe who somehow found a scribt of ancient text written in Ancient Elven Language, and translated it into plain English. But I don't suppose Prof T is an archeologist by any chance, so the LOTR and the Silmarillion is pure fiction. Hope that would help you sleep easier at night!

03-04-2004, 02:52 PM	#4
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	Yes, there was a connection, but I thought JRRT abandoned those ideas. There was definitely a connection when he first started writing but I thought it "evolved" into something that wasn't connected, because the Silmarillion and UT both come after the Book of Lost Tales and there wasn't any mention of a connection in those.

03-05-2004, 02:29 PM	#7
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Tolkien gave a radio interview for BBC 4 in 1971. The following is a question he was asked and his answer: "'G: It seemed to me that Middle-earth was in a sense as you say this world we live in but at a different era. ' Tolkien: 'No ... at a different stage of imagination, yes.' "

03-12-2004, 08:37 AM	#10
nynnd1 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: england Posts: 64	just as i thought kransha. There are big similarities between the two

03-12-2004, 09:20 AM	#11
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	So, Kransha, if ME is Europe and Harad is Africa, is the Anduin the Meditteranean Sea? And would the North Sea - above Germany - , would that be were Beleriand sunk? __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

03-13-2004, 05:43 AM	#12
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	^^No. The Shire was meant to be England and Beleriand was to the north-west of the Grey Havens,wich were to the northwest of the Shire themself. It's possible the Grey Havens are meant to lie in Ireland. In that case, Beleriand lay in the North Atlantic, roughly between North America,Ireland,Greenland and Iceland. Wich makes me ponder...could Iceland be meant as a surviving part of Beleriand? __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

03-13-2004, 08:11 AM	#13
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	Originally, it wasn't the Shire that was meant to be England but Tol Eressëa. There is a lot about this in the Book of Lost Tales 1&2. bilbo_baggins: Not all of the parts in Middle-earth correspond to parts of our world. There are just similarities. Not too long ago, this map was posted on a thread. Go here to see it. This should clear up some of your questions.

03-25-2004, 05:01 PM	#14
haltred Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Victoria BC Canada Posts: 20	I do not believe that JRRT had spefic places in mind for each place in Middle Earth. Though one might think Shire = England and so forth. BUT I think Tolkien was reaching back to the legends of most of Europe . Those of Roland , of the Viking sagas , of the Wagnerian ring cycle, those of Arthur and Alfred. And the lands could be anywhere in Europe but I don't think he planned it that way. I think it is what our imaginaton makes it. __________________ In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit

04-26-2004, 03:37 PM	#16
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Yeah, but it wasn't meant to be physcially in the same place as England. ;) Along the same latitude though, to account for the same climate. The Third Age of Middle-earth is meant to end at some (imho, an almost-touchable-yet-just-unreachable) point before the dawn of recorded history, so says Tolkien. He gave an exmaple of around 6,000 years ago, as back then that was when "recorded history" "began" in depth...however, that was just an example, bascially, LotR is set before, but not hugely before, our earliest history, so whenever a new archaelogical find is found, just shift the date of LotR back a bit. ;) EDIT: Yikes! I accidnetally said that Men arose 150,000 years ago. This was a MISTAKE. It's roughly 57,000 according to HoMe X (which puts each "Year" in the SIlmarillion before the rising of the Sun as being 144 sun-years long...and also places the birth of Man all the way back to slightly before the Great March)...somehow I'd got "c.50,000" mixed up with 150,000...hmm. Also, Tolkien later wrote that perhaps he could have made the geography of LotR fit better with Europe's, had he had that specifically in mind at the time of writing. (Note how the land around the icy Cape of Forochel has a similar shape to Scandanavia). Frnakl,y though, letting the sotry and geography design themselves allowed for greater freedom, and a better LotR...for a start, there would have been no Mordor as we know it! :eek: __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!" Last edited by Olorin_TLA; 05-06-2004 at 06:17 AM.

08-08-2004, 02:13 PM	#17
Isowen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The blackened depths Posts: 86	I think I can answer your question I have heard many rumors, and questions about this. The most popular one seems to be that Middle-Earth is in fact based on England. I am not what you call learned but I do have the answer. Middle- Earth is not an imaginary place. It is Europe. The name Middle-Earth comes from the Middle-English term Middel- erthe which is the name Europeans called their land hundreds of years ago. As Tolkien says in the Prologue to LOTR, those features on his maps do not match those of Modern Europe, because it has changed over time but there's no doubt about a few points of origin. To answer your other question, Tolkien estimated that Frodo's quest to destroy the ring took place about 6000 years ago, by our calender. Just a quick fact to finish off; The 'black land' of Mordor is located where you now find the Black Sea. But I may be wrong __________________ I hope Butterbur sends this promptly. A worthy man, but his memory is like a lumber -room: Thing wanted always burried, If he forgets, I shall roast him.