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03-13-2005, 12:33 PM | #1 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 03 - The Black Gate Is Closed
The beginning of this chapter feels almost anticlimactic, with its announcement that the journey to Mordor was over. However, the difficulties involved with entering the land are only just beginning with the arrival at the Black Gate.
We have descriptive passages in this chapter as well as glimpses of the past history of Gondor and the Dark Lord. Some of this is given by the narrator; some comes, interestingly, from Sméagol. This is a good basis for discussion of background information to this chapter. Though the situation is serious, the first direct speech comes from Sam and is humorous in nature. His "inner Gaffer" is telling him that he has come to a bad end - and that he needs a wash! I love the statement that "he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed." That tells us much about his nature. We experience some of this part of the story from his point of view - and find that he is more astute in his assessment of Gollum's purpose and their situation than he seemed so far. We also get a glimpse into Frodo's thoughts. He takes his time making that all-important decision, preceded by a wonderful passage about the strength of his character. Quote:
The nicknames Sam gives to Gollum's two halves are appropriate and rather amusing - Slinker and Stinker. Gollum is both helpful and deceptive in telling about the other way into Mordor, above all following his own agenda. There is a tiny glimpse into the other thread of the story, telling about what Gandalf was doing at that time. Once again a poem is included! The Oliphaunt poem (and Sam's recitation thereof) is a favourite of many fans. How do you like it and how do you see its importance in the story? As I see it, it serves a purpose in the narrative, as laughing over it releases Frodo from his hesitation concerning their next step. The conversations and glimpses into the three characters give us much to discuss, individually and comparatively. As there is no physical movement in this chapter - it takes place in one location - the concentration is on the characters and their decisions.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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03-14-2005, 09:29 AM | #2 | ||||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
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This chapter makes good use of some interesting contrasts. In the first view of the Black Gate we are told that the towers were originally built to keep Sauron out of Mordor:
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It is fortunate for men that Sauron for some reason does not or cannot focus on more than one of the entrances to Mordor. At the Black Gate his strength and vigilance is very much evident: Quote:
I had to say that it seems Sauron does not or cannot focus on all the possible ways into Mordor, as I noticed the following passage: Quote:
One question always haunts me. What other entrances are there? Could they have got in from the North, or the East? What would have stopped them apart from the urgency of the task? And also, there is foreshadowing of later events in the book. Quote:
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Finally I want to include this quote from Gollum which is quite disturbing : Quote:
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Gordon's alive!
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03-14-2005, 10:12 AM | #3 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Resuming lurk mode...
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Bado go Eru, Aldarion |
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03-14-2005, 02:02 PM | #4 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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One question that occured to me reading this chapter was: Why does Smeagol think Frodo is going to Mordor?
Or has he even considered this? Certainly he is by now, even if he wasn't during his long sojourn under the Misty Mountains, aware of the nature of the Ring & wath it can offer its possessor: Quote:
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We've seen Frodo succumbing to the seduction of the Ring. Two confrontations so far with Gollum, & both times (there will be a third at the Forbidden Pool) he uses the (threat of) the power of the Ring to dominate & subjugate him - using terrible threats, which he knows Gollum will believe. Aren't we seeing Frodo's ultimate failure at the Sammath Naur foreshadowed right here? If so, why do we continue with any hope? Do we share Sam's blind faith in Frodo, or is our faith, whether we realise it or not, in something (Someone) else? |
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03-14-2005, 02:06 PM | #5 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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A brilliant post Lalwende, and you draw comparisons to Orthanc and Mordor, it makes me think whether Saruman and Sauron were so different.
1. They both wanted the same thing, the ring and total domination. 2. They are both beaten the same way. Sauron sends his forces to meet Aragorn as Frodo and Sam sneak in the back. Saruman sends his forces to Helm's Deep, forgets about the Ents and is destroyed. Above that both quests are shone as unlikely and will be unsuccessful. Quote:
4. They even have the same thinking. Gandalf mentions something about how Sauron has no idea that they plan on practically taking the ring right to him. Literally taking it into Mordor. All Sauron can think is that someone would use it to overthrow him, because that's what he would do. Saruman when he has his chance of repentance can only think that Gandalf wishes to replace him, is it because that's what he would do? Quote:
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03-15-2005, 04:56 AM | #6 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 886
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Do you think Gollum already had a notion in the back of his mind that he would lead the hobbits to Shelob, therefore he did not raise the possibility of another entrance? Did Gollum know the black gate would be guarded as a stronghold and therefore impossible to pass? Did Gollum actually know where the eastwards passage of the mountains ended anyway, and that there was an 'easy' entrance to mordor from the East? As you can see, I'm raising more questions than answers here. Perhaps someone has the answer..... |
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03-15-2005, 07:24 AM | #7 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
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But there must be more to it than this, and I think it ties into this: Quote:
What's Gollum up to here?
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Gordon's alive!
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03-15-2005, 11:56 AM | #8 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
Join Date: Apr 2004
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originally posted by davem:
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Having fun wolfing it to the bitter end, I see, gaur-ancalime (lmp, ww13) |
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03-15-2005, 12:24 PM | #9 | ||||
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: dor-lomin, of course
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Gollum was going to try to take the Ring, no doubt about that, but he put off taking it because of fear.
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I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not so sure. |
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03-15-2005, 12:45 PM | #10 | |
Dead Serious
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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03-15-2005, 02:09 PM | #11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 886
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This has also given me another reason to re-read the books re how EARLY did Gollum's plan enter his head to kill the hobbits? Why on earth would he lead them to mordor? I suppose the oath has something to do with it, but gollum's not stupid, I think we can be fairly sure of that. Why on earth would he think the hobbits wanted to venture into mordor with the ring? to either fight or give up the ring.
Just thinking on my feet about the last sentence. I began to write "or destroy it" at the end. But thinking about it, how would Gollum know you COULD destroy the ring by throwing it in to the cracks of doom? (come to think of it, how do gandalf and elrond know this - or was it an educated guess?) |
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