Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering

[Findegil]

This is the first draft of an expaned version ot the Story of Túrin Turambar NA. Our basis text is: Unfinished Tales; part 1; The First Age ; chapter 2: The Narn i Hîn Húrin (Narn). All additions from other sources are marked.

For a easier discussion the text will be devided into three parts:
1. The Fostering of Túrin: Reaching from the intro to the Narn until the end of Dor-Curathol
2. Beleg & Falivirn: Takes the story until the Fall of Nargothrond
3. The End of the Narn

Part 1 corrospondes more or less to the part of the Narn given in Unfinished Tales up to the big break at the end of Of Mîm including what is given in the Appendix to the Narn

Part 2 does fill the break in the Narn as given in Unfinished Tales. In this part only we will try to take up parts of the old Lay of the Children of Húrin.

Part 3 is the End of the Narn as given in Unfinished Tales. And there is not much to add or to change in this part.

In addtion one thread will hold the general changes.

We have 4 groups of changes:

NA-zz: General changes given and discussed in the list below. These changes are taken up in the text, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

NA-RG-zz: These changes are semi general. They are normaly forced by a change in the nomuclature but could within the lines of a poem that are added not dealt with by simple replacment. The changed nomuclature is listed but not numbered with the general changes below.

NA-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit to the later sources. These editorial markers are also sometimes used when a change was not made that could or should be considered and discussed in view of the stroyline of a later text.

NA-TI-zz For text that is takenin from other sources since it was left out in the version given in the Unfinisched Tales.

NA-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, and texts takenin which I marked for easier reference.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normaly only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

Narn e·mbar Hador
Narn i Chîn Húrin
or
Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
The Tale of the Children of Húrin
NA-TI-01<Aelfwine & Dirhaval B Many songs are yet sung and many tales are yet told by the Elves in the Lonely Isle of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, in which Fingon fell and the flower of the Eldar withered. But here I will tell as I may a Tale of Men that Dirhaval of the Havens made in the days of {Earendel}[Eärendil] long ago. Narn i Chîn Húrin he called it, the Tale [Footnote: narn among the Elves signifies a tale that is told in verse to be spoken and not sung.] of the Children of Húrin, which is the longest of all the lays that are now remembered {in Eressea}[by the Elves], though it was made by a man.
For such was Dirhaval. He came of the House of Hador, it is said, and the glory and sorrow of that House was nearest to his heart. Dwelling at the Havens of Sirion, he gathered there all the tidings and lore that he could; for in the last days of Beleriand chere came thither remnants out of all the countries, both Men and Elves: from Hithlum and Dor-lomin, from Nargothrond and Doriath, from Gondolin and the realms of the Sons of Fëanor in the east. NA-EX-01<Aelfwine & Dirhaval A From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Androg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh. Otherwise all that time between the flight of Túrin from Doriath and his coming to Nargothrond, and Túrin's deeds in those days, would have remained hidden, save the little that was remembered among the people of Nargothrond concerning such matters as Gwindor or Túrin ever revealed. In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear.>
This lay was all that Dirhaval ever made, but it was prized by the Eldar, for Dirhaval used the Grey-elven tongue, in which he had great skill. He used that mode of Elvish verse which is called NA-EX-02{[long space left in typescript]} <Aelfwine & Dirhaval A Minlamad thent / estent> which was of old proper to the narn; but though this verse mode is not unlike the verse NA-SL-01{of the English}[I know], I have rendered it NA-EX-03<editorial addition most often it> in prose, judging my skill too small to be at once scop and walhstod. Even so my task has been hard enough, and without the help of the Elves could not have been completed. I have not added to Dirhaval's tale, nor omitted from it anything that he told; neither have I changed the order of his history. But on matters that seemed of interest, or that were become dark with the passing of the years, I have made notes, whether within the tale or upon its margins, according to such lore as I found{ in Eressea}.>
NA-EX-04{The Childhood of Túrin}[* * *]
Hador Goldenhead was a lord of the Edain and well-beloved by the Eldar. …

NA-TI-01: The intro should be added. I tried the later text but the older one can also be considered.

NA-EX-01: Since we already agreed to use the info given in this passaage, I don’t see any good reason not to use it.

NA-EX-02: The name is only given in text A. It might need a linguistical check.

NA-SL-01: Since Aelfwine is no longer the trading person, we should deleat all references to English.

NA-EX-03: This is only needed if we take up parts from the old “Lay of the Children of Húrin” as I desiere to do.

NA-EX-04: I moved the sub-heading since what follows is by our additions much more than only Túrins childhood.

Huor wedded Rían, the cousin of Morwen; she was the daughter of Belegund son of Bregolas. By hard fate was she born into such days, for she was gentle of heart and loved neither hunting nor war. Her love was given to trees and to the flowers of the wild, and she was a singer and a maker of songs. Two months only had she been wedded to Huor when he went with his brother to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and she never saw him again.{ 1}

NA-TI-02 <Sil77 At {this}the time [after the Dagor Bragollach] Húrin and Huor{, the sons of Galdor of Dor-lómin, were dwelling with the Haladin, for they were akin. In the days before the Dagor Bragollach those two houses of the Edain were joined at a great feast, when Galdor and Glóredhel the children of Hador Goldenhead were wedded to Hareth and Haldir the children of Halmir lord of the Haladin. Thus it was that the sons of Galdor} were fostered in Brethil by Haldir their uncle, according to the custom of Men in that time; and they went both to that battle with the Orcs NA-EX-05 <editorial addition when they came through the western pass>, even Huor, for he would not be restrained, though he was but thirteen years old. But being with a company that was cut off from …
…
But Maeglin, the King's sister-son, who was mighty in Gondolin, grieved not at all at their going, though he begrudged them the favour of the King, for he had no love for any of the kindred of Men; and he said to Húrin: “NA-TI-03 {The King's grace is greater than you know, and the law is become less stern than aforetime; or else no choice would be given you but to abide here to your life's end.} <GA; Appended Note 3 The king's grace to you is greater than ye know; and some might wonder wherefore the strict law is abated for two knave-children of Men. It would be safer if they had no choice but to abide here as our servants to their life's end.>”
Then Húrin answered him: “The King's grace is great indeed; but if our word is not enough, then we will swear oaths to you.” And the brothers swore … but he and many others guessed at the truth.>NA-EX-06<GA For both the oath of silence and the Eagles pointed to Turgon, men thought.>
NA-EX-07 <LQ2 Of the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros]>
In the years after the Dagor Bragollach and the fall of Fingolfin the shadow of the fear of Morgoth lenghtened. NA-EX-08<GA {In this}[But in due] time {Maidros}[Maeðros] began those counsels for the raising of the fortunes of the Eldar that are called the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros]. For new hope ran through the land, {because of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien,} and it seemed to many that Morgoth was not unconquerable, and that fear only gave him his power.> NA-EX-09<Q30 {But in those days}[Thus] {Maidros}[Maeðros] son of Fëanor lifted up his heart, perceiving that Morgoth was not unassailable; for the deeds of Beren and Lúthien and the breaking of the towers of Sauron were sung in many songs throughout Beleriand. Yet Morgoth would destroy them all, one by one, if they could not again unite, and make a new league and common council. Therefore he planned the Union of {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he planned wisely.>
NA-EX-10<QS Yet the oath of Fëanor and the evil deeds that it had wrought did injury to the design of {Maidros}[Maeðros], and he had less aid than should have been. Orodreth would not march from Nargothrond at the word of any son of Fëanor, because of the deeds of {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin. Thence came only a small company, whom Orodreth suffered to go, since they could not endure to be idle when their kinsfolk were gathering for war. Gwindor was their leader, son of Guilin, a very valiant prince; but they took the badge of the house of Fingolfin, and marched beneath the banners of Fingon, and came never back, save one.
From Doriath came little help. For {Maidros}[Maeðros] and his brethren, being constrained by their oath, had before sent to Thingol and reminded him with haughty words of their claim, summoning him to yield to them the Silmaril, or become their enemy. Melian counselled him to surrender the jewel, and perchance he would have done so, but their words were proud and threatening, and he was wroth, thinking of the anguish of Lúthien and the blood of Beren whereby the jewel had been won, despite the malice of {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin. And every day that he looked upon the jewel, the more his heart desired to keep it for ever. Such was its power. Therefore he sent back the messengers of {Maidros}[Maeðros] with scornful words. {Maidros}[Maeðros] answered naught, for he had now begun to devise the league and union of the Elves; but {Celegorn}[Celegorm] and Curufin vowed openly to slay Thingol and destroy his folk, if they came victorious from war, and the jewel were not surrendered of free will. For this reason Thingol fortified the marches of his realm, and went not to war, nor any out of Doriath save Mablung, and Beleg who could not be restrained.>
NA-EX-11<GABut {Maidros}[Maeðros] had the help of the Naugrim, both in armed force and in great store of weapons; and he gathered together again all his brethren and all the folk that would follow them; and the men of Bor and of Ulfang were marshalled and trained for war, and given fair arms, and they summoned yet more of their kinsfolk out of the East. And in Hithlum Fingon, ever the friend of {Maidros}[Maeðros], prepared for war, taking counsel with Himring. To Gondolin also the tidings came to the hidden king, Turgon, and in secret also he prepared for great battle. And {Haleth}[Halmir] gathered his folk in Brethil, and they whetted their axes; but he died of age ere the war came, and {Hundor}[Haldir] his son ruled his people.> NA-EX-12<QS The treacherous shaft of Curufin that wounded Beren was remembered among Men. Therefore of the folk of Haleth that dwelt in Brethil only the half came forth, and they went not to join {Maidros}[Maeðros], but came rather to Fingon{ and Turgon} in the West.>
{But}Thus in the four hundred and sixty-ninth year after the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth there was a stirring of hope among Elves and Men; for the rumour ran among them of the deeds of Beren and Lúthien, and the putting to shame of Morgoth even upon his throne in Angband, and some said that Beren and Lúthien yet lived, or had returned from the Dead. In that year also the great counsels of {Maedhros}[Maeðros] were almost complete, and {with the reviving strength of the Eldar and the Edain the advance of Morgoth was stayed, and the Orcs were driven back from Beleriand.} NA-EX-13<GA {In}in the spring of this year {Maidros}[Maeðros] made the first trial of his strength though his plans were not yet full-wrought. In which he erred, not concealing his stroke until it could be made suddenly with all strength, as Morgoth had done. For the Orcs indeed were driven out of Beleriand once more, and even Dorthonion was freed for a while, so that the frontiers of the Noldor were again as they were before the Bragollach, save that the Anfauglith was now a desert possessed by neither side. But Morgoth NA-EX-14<Q30 withdrew before them and called back his servants; for he was aware of all that was done> ; and being warned of the uprising of the Eldar and the Elf-friends he took counsel against them, and he sent forth many spies and workers of treason among them, as he was the better able now to do, for the faithless men of his secret allegiance were yet deep in the secrets of Fëanor's sons. >Then some began to speak of victories to come, and of redressing the Battle of the Bragollach, when {Maedhros}[Maeðros] should lead forth the united hosts, and drive Morgoth underground, and seal the Doors of Angband.
But the wiser were uneasy still, fearing that {Maedhros}[Maeðros] revealed his growing strength too soon, and that Morgoth would be given time enough to take counsel against him. "Ever will some new evil be hatched in Angband beyond the guess of Elves and Men," they said. And in the autumn of that year, to point their words, there came an ill wind from the North under leaden skies. The Evil Breath it was called, for it was pestilent; and many sickened and died in the fall of the year in the northern lands that bordered on the Anfauglith, and they were for the most part the children or the rising youth in the houses of Men.
NA-EX-15<moved from above The Childhood of Túrin>
In that year Túrin son of Húrin was yet only five years old, and Urwen his sister was three in the beginning of spring. …

NA-TI-02: The footnote does refer to an account of the sejourne of Húrin and Hour in Gondolin which was diecribed in HoME 11. I think that we should add it here. As I have done. (See also NA-TI-04.) I have here taken the text from Sil77 following the appended note 3 to the Grey Annals.

NA-EX-05: We do not know how this was dealt with inthe original text but in Sill77 the reference of “that battle” is clear from the circumstances but in this place it is not.

NA-TI-03: This changes s mentioned in GA.

NA-EX-06: This sentence was not in the original Narn version, but I think we should add it.

NA-EX-07 - NA-EX-14: Here we start with the incooperation of the material concerning the Fifth Battle. Since the Narn will be the only text in The Translation from the Elvish that does discribe that battle we have to add more then only the battle itself. Therefor I started here with a subheading taken from LQS. The following text is a reconstruction of the text edited by Christopher Tolkien for Sil77 from its original sources incooperated into the Narn were there are some faint hints of that action of Maedhros.

NA-EX-15 From this place onward the Narn did return to Túrin and therefore I think here is the apropirate place for this subheading.

But Morwen and Túrin stood still by the doors, until far away they heard the faint call of a single horn on the wind: Húrin had passed over the shoulder of the hill, beyond which be could see his house no more.
NA-EX-16 {The Words of Húrin and Morgoth} <Sil77 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad>
Many songs are sung and many tales are told by the Elves of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, in which Fingon fell and the flower of the Eldar withered. If all were retold a man's life would not suffice for the hearing{; 2}NA-TI-04<GA; appended Note 2. Here then shall be recounted {only}[especially] those deeds which bear upon the fate of the House of Hador and the children of Húrin the Steadfast.
Having gathered at length all the strength that he could {Maedhros}[Maeðros] appointed a day, the morning of Midsummer. On that day the trumpets of the Eldar greeted the rising of the Sun, … Upon the right were stationed the host of Dor-lomin and all the valour of Húrin and Huor his brother, and to them had come NA-EX-17<editorial addition Haldir and> Hundar of Brethil, their kinsman, with many men of the woods.
Then Fingon looked east and his elven-sight saw far off a dust and the glint of steel like stars in a mist, …
…
Then in the plain of Anfauglith, on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, all the sorrow of which no tale can contain. Of all that befell in the eastward battle [b]NA-EX-18[b]<editorial addition only a little should be told here>: {of the routing of Glaurung the Drake by the Naugrim of Belegost;} NA-EX-19<GA {But even as}When the vanguard of {Maidros}[Maeðros] came upon{ the Orcs}, Morgoth loosed his {last}[greatest] strength{, and Angband was emptied}. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs{ a thousand}, and there came worms and drakes, and Glaurung, Father of Dragons. And the strength and terror of the Great Worm were now grown great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came {between}[upon] the hosts of {Maidros}[Maeðros]{ and Fingon} and swept them apart.> NA-EX-20< GA
Last of all the eastern force to stand firm NA-EX-21<editorial additionagainst the worms and drakes> were the Enfeng of Belegost, and thus won renown. Now the Naugrim withstood fire more hardily than either Elves or Men, and it was the custom moreover of the Enfeng to wear great masks in battle hideous to look upon, which stood them in good stead against the drakes. And but for them Glaurung and his brood would have withered all that was left of the Noldor. But the Naugrim made a circle about him when he assailed them, and even his mighty armour was not full proof against the blows of their great axes; and when in his rage he turned and struck down Azaghâl of Belegost and crawled over him, with his last stroke Azaghâl drove a knife into his belly and so wounded him that he fled the field and the beasts of Angband in dismay followed after him. Had Azaghâl but borne a sword great woe would have been spared to the Noldor that after befell but his knife went not deep enough. But then the Enfeng raised up the body of Azaghâl and bore it away; and with slow steps they walked behind, singing a dirge in their deep voices, as it were a funeral pomp in their own country, and gave no heed more to their foes; and indeed none dared to stay them.
>{ of the treachery of the Easterlings and the overthrow of the host of Maedhros and} NA-EX-22<GA Yet neither by wolf, balrog, nor dragon would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men. In this hour the plots of Ulfang were revealed; for many of the Easterlings turned and fled, their hearts being filled with lies and fear; but the sons of Ulfang went over suddenly to the side of Morgoth and drove in upon the rear of the sons of Fëanor. And in the confusion that they wrought they came near to the standard of {Maidros}[Maeðros]. They reaped not the reward that Morgoth promised them, for Maglor slew Uldor the Accursed, the leader in treason, and Bor and his sons slew Ulfast and Ulwarth ere they themselves were slain. But new strength of evil men came up that Uldor had summoned and kept hidden in the eastern hills, and the host of {Maidros}[Maeðros] being assailed now on three sides, by the Orcs, and the beasts, and by the Swarthy Men, was dispersed and fled this way and that. Yet fate saved the sons of Fëanor, and though all were wounded, none were slain, for they drew together and gathering a remnant of Noldor and of the Naugrim about them they hewed a way out of the battle and escaped towards Mount Dolmed.> Of the flight of the Sons of Fëanor, no more is here said.
In the west the host of Fingon retreated over the sands , and Haldir lord of the Haladin was slain in the rearguard; with him fell most of the Men of Brethil, and came never back to their woods. …
…
… Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.
Thus ended Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the sun went down beyond the sea. Night fell in Hithlum, and there came a great storm of wind out of the West.

Great indeed now was the triumph of Morgoth; and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men, and betrayed the Eldar, and fear and hatred were aroused among those that should have been united against him. From that day indeed began the estrangement of Elves from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses of Beor, Hador, and Haleth, and their children.
The March of {Maidros}[Maeðros] was no more. The fell sons of Fëanor were broken and wandered far away in the woods as leaves before the wind. The Gorge of Aglon was filled with Orcs, and the Hill of Himring was garrisoned by soldiers of Angband; the pass of Sirion was pierced NA-EX-22.5{ and Tol-sirion retaken and its dread towers rebuilt}. All the gates of Beleriand were in the power of Morgoth. The realm of Fingon was no more. To Hithlum came back never one of Fingon's host, nor any of the Men of Hador, nor any tidings of the battle and the fate of their lords.> NA-EX-23<GA And Morgoth now broke his pledges to the Easterlings that had served him, and denied to them the rich lands of Beleriand which they coveted, and he sent away these evil folk into Hithlum, and there commanded them to dwell. And little though they now loved their new king, yet they despised the remnant of the folk of Hador (the aged and the women and the children for the most part), and they oppressed them, and took their lands and goods, and wedded their women by force, and enslaved their children. And those of the Grey-elves that had dwelt there fled into the mountains, or were taken to the mines of the North and laboured there as thralls.>
NA-EX-24<GA Now the Orcs in token of the great triumph of Angband gathered with great labour all the bodies of their enemies that were slain, and all their harness and weapons, and they piled them, Elves and Men, in a great hill in the midst of the Anfauglith. {Haud-ina-Nengin}[Haudh-en-Nirnaeth] was the name of that mound, and it was like unto a hill. But thither alone in all the desert the grass came, and grew again long and green, and thereafter no Orc dared tread upon the earth beneath which the swords of the Noldor crumbled into rust.>
NA-EX-25<GA Doriath indeed remained, and Nargothrond was hidden, and Círdan held the Havens; but Morgoth gave small heed to them as yet, either for he knew little of them, or because their hour was not yet come in the deep purposes of his malice. But one thought troubled him deeply, and marred his triumph; Turgon had escaped the net, whom he most desired to take. For Turgon came of the great house of Fingolfin, and was now by right King of all the Noldor, and Morgoth feared and hated most the house of Fingolfin, because they had scorned him in Valinor, and had the friendship of Ulmo, and because of the wounds that Fingolfin gave him in battle. Moreover of old his eye had lighted on Turgon, and a dark shadow fell on his heart, foreboding that, in some time that lay yet hidden in doom, from Turgon ruin should come to him.>
NA-EX-26<moved from above The Words of Húrin and Morgoth>
{but}But now is to be told{ only} of what befell Húrin son of Galdor, Lord of Dor-lómin, when beside the stream of Rivil he was taken at last alive by the command of Morgoth, and carried off to Angband.

NA-EX-16: Here I added a further subheading taken from LQS. I do not believe that all the battle was described under the subheading “The Words of Húrin and Morgoth” as the Narn suggests. But however that may be we need the subheading I think.

NA-TI-04 & NA-EX-18 - NA-EX-22: In the Narn paper there was here an account of the battle which is mentioned in the Note 2 to the Narn and discribed in the appended note 2 to the Grey Annals. This does corosponds with the chapterstructer I developed (see the thread in the public forum). If we follow this the sub-headings must be changed. But while working closer on the text then I did before, I found some changes in the subheadings of the Narn are in order too (as I have done in the text). The problem with this account of the Battle is that it does contradict all earlier once and does not provide any details of the eastern battle which we have to integrate. At least the story of Azaghâl woundig Glaurung was clearly still present when the Narn was written. I have first recreated the text of the Narn as good as possible and then done what I could with additions from other sources. Thus the course of the battle is based on the Narn version, but we must consider these changed course ot the battle. It might prove to be unworkable.

NA-EX-17: See the Table of the house of Haleth and the discussion of the matter in LQS.

NA-EX-22.5: This is contradicting the Tale of Berenand Lúthien were it is told that the grave of Finrod was never disspoiled as long as Beleriand stood. I do not know for sure which version is later, but I think it is the one in Beren and Lúthien.

NA-EX-23 - NA-EX-25: These are again additions necessary because this is the only text in our worke describing these period of time.

NA-EX-26: Here we return tho the Narn and thus this seems the right place for the subheading.

… All the people of Húrin's homelands that could work or serve any purpose they took away, even young girls and boys, and the old they killed or drove out to starve. But they dared not yet lay hands on the Lady of Dor-lómin, or thrust her from her house; for the word ran among them that she was perilous, and a witch who had dealings with the white-fiends: for so they named the Elves, hating them, but fearing them more.{ 3}NA-TI-05 <NA; Note 3 {In another version of the text it is made explicit that Morwen did indeed have}/And indeed Morwen had/ dealings with the Eldar who had secret dwellings in the mountains not far from her house. {"}But they could tell her no news. None had seen Húrin's fall. {'}["]He was not with Fingon,{'}["] they said; {'}["]he was driven south with Turgon, but if any of his folk escaped it was in the wake of the host of Gondolin. But who knows? For the Orcs have piled all the slain together, and search is vain, even if any dared to go to the Haudh-en-Nirnaeth.{'}"> For this reason {they}the Easterlings also feared and avoided the mountains, in which many of the Eldar had taken refuge, especially in the south of the land; and after plundering and harrying {the Easterlings}they drew back northwards. …

NA-TI-05: As before I think we should take the content of the note into the body of the text.

Then a thought came to him, and he summoned Túrin, an told him that Morwen had sent to her son a mighty thing, the heirloom of his fathers. "Take now the Dragonhead of the North," he said, "and when the time comes wear it well." But Túrin was yet too young to lift the helm, and he heeded it not because of the sorrow of his heart.
[* * *]
NA-EX-27 <GA In this year Morgoth having rested his strength, and given heed to his own hurts and great losses, renewed the assault upon Beleriand, which now lay open to him; and the orcs and wolves passed far into the lands, even as far as the borders of Ossiriand upon one side, and Nan Tathren upon the other, and none were safe in field or wild.
Many now fled to the Havens and took refuge behind Círdan's walls, and the mariner folk passed up and down the coast and harried the enemy with swift landings. Therefore the first assault of Morgoth was against Círdan; and ere the winter was come he sent great strength over Hithlum and {Nivrost}[Nevrast], and they came down the Rivers Brithon and Nenning, and ravaged all the Falas, and besieged the walls of Brithombar and Eglarest. Smiths and miners and masters of fire they brought with them, and set up great engines, and though they were stoutly resisted they broke the walls at last. Then the Havens were laid in ruin, and the Tower of {Ingildon}[Nimrais] cast down, and all Círdan's folk slain or enthralled, save those that went aboard and escaped by sea and some few that fled north to Mithrim.
Then Círdan took his remnant by ship, and they sailed to the Isle of Balar, and made a refuge for all that could come thither. For they kept also a foothold at the mouths of Sirion, and there many light swift ships lay hid in the creeks and waters where the reeds were dense as a forest. And when Turgon heard of this he sent again his messengers to Sirion's Mouths, and besought the aid of Círdan the Shipwright. And at his bidding Círdan let build seven swift ships, and they sailed out into the West, and were never heard of again - save one and the last. Now the captain of this ship was Voronwe, and he toiled in the sea for many years, until returning at last in despair his ship foundered in a great storm within sight of land, and he alone survived, for Ulmo saved him from the wrath of Ossë, and the waves bore him up and cast him ashore in {Nivrost}[Nevrast].>
Túrin in Doriath
In the years of his childhood in the kingdom of Doriath Túrin was watched over by Melian, though he saw her seldom. But there was a maiden named Nellas, who lived in the woods; and at Melian's bidding she would follow Túrin if he strayed in the forest, and often she met him there, as it were by chance. From Nellas Túrin learned much concerning the ways and the wild things of Doriath, and she taught him to speak the Sindarin tongue after the manner of the ancient realm, older, and more courteous, and richer in beautiful words.{ 6} Thus for a little while his mood was lightened, until he fell again under shadow, and that friendship passed like a morning of spring. For Nellas did not go to Menegroth, and was unwilling ever to walk under roofs of stone; so that as Túrin's boyhood passed and he turned his thoughts to the deeds of men, he saw her less and less often, and at last called for her no more{.} NA-TI-06<NA; Note 7; and always{Always} he sought in all faces of women the face of Lalaith.> But she watched over him still, though now she remained hidden.{ 7}
Nine years Túrin dwelt in the halls of Menegroth. …

NA-EX-27: This is not the perfect place for the fall of the Havens, but I could find no better one, and it must betold since otherwise the refference to Arminas and Gelmir would be obscure. Maybe an editorial brigde is in order here (like: “Now it most been told that in this year ...”) or an sub-heading like “The Ruin of the Falas”

NA-TI-06: As before I think we should take the content of the note into the body of the text.

… Then Túrin spoke again. "Do you take me to be your captain? Then I will lead you first away into the wild far from the homes of Men. There we may find better fortune or not; but at the least we shall earn less hatred of our own kind.{"} NA-TI-07 <NA; Note 10 {In a variant text of this part of the story Túrin at this time} /I will now /declared to {the outlaws his}/to you my/ true name/: I am Túrin son Húrin/; and {he claimed that, being}/I claim to be/ by right the lord and judge of the People of Hador{, he had}/. Thus I have/ slain Forweg justly, since he was a man of Dor-lómin./"/ Then Algund, the old outlaw who had fled down Sirion from the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, said{ that Túrin's}/: "Your/ eyes {had}/have/ long reminded {him}/me/ of another whom {he}/I/ could not recall, and{ that} now {he}/I/ knew {him}/you/ for the son of Húrin. {"'}But he was a smaller man, small for his kin, though filled with fire; and his hair gold-red. You are dark, and tall. I see your mother in you, now that I look closer; she was of Bëor's people. What fate was hers, I wonder.{' '}/" "/I do not know,{'}/"/ said Túrin. {'}/"/No word comes out of the North.{'}">
Then all those that were of the People of Hador gathered to him, and took him as their captain; and the others with less good will agreed. And at once he led them away out of that country.{ 10}

NA-TI-07: Here we have again the dificult task to decied what we do with the content of the Note. I think we should includ it as I have done.

… whom they could not see, and yet could not shake off; and they grew uneasy.{ 11}
NA-TI-07.5 <NA; note 11 {they}Túrin and his band remained in the Vale of Sirion{, and indeed that they were not far from their previous haunts at the time of the Orc-raid on the homes of the Woodmen. In one tentative version} they went away southwards and came to the country {"}above the Aelin-uial and the Fens of Sirion{"; but}/. But/ the men {becoming}became discontented in that {"}harbourless land{",}/. Thus/ Túrin was persuaded to lead them back to the woodlands south of {Teiglin}[Taeglin] where he first encountered them.>
Not long afterwards, as Beleg had feared, …

NA-TI-07.5 Here again we need the content of the note to elaborate our text.

… and his shadow passed from her.{ 12}
NA-TI-08 <Sil77 On the next day Beleg set out, and Túrin went with him a bowshot from the camp; but he said nothing. {'}["]Is it farewell, then, son of Húrin?{'}["] said Beleg. Then Túrin looked out westward, and he saw far off the great height of Amon Rûdh; and unwitting of what lay before him he answered: {'}["]You have said, seek me in Dimbar. But I say, seek for me on Amon Rûdh! Else, this is our last farewell.{'}["] Then they parted, in friendship, yet in sadness.
Now Beleg returned to the Thousand Caves, …
…
… suddenly his companions missed Beleg, and he returned to them no more.>
Of Mîm the Dwarf
After the departure of Beleg (and that was in the second summer after the flight of Túrin from Doriath){13} things went ill for the outlaws. …

NA-TI-08: This note surely must be followed!

Upon the eastern side a broken land climbed slowly up to the high ridges among knots of birch and rowan, and ancient thorn-trees rooted in rock. About the lower slopes of Amon Rûdh there grew thickets of aeglos; but its steep grey head was bare, save for the red seregon that mantled the stone. NA-TI-08.5{ 14}[Footnote to the text: Aeglos, "snowthorn", is said to have been like furze (gorse), but larger, and with white flowers. Aeglos was also the name of the spear of Gil-galad. Seregon, "blood of stone", was a plant of the kind called in English "stonecrop"; it had flowers of a deep red.]
As the afternoon was waning the outlaws drew near to the roots of the hill. They came now from the north, for so Mîm had led them, and the light of the westering sun fell upon the crown of Amon Rûdh, and the seregon was all in flower.
"See! There is blood on the hill-top," said Andróg.
"Not yet," said Túrin.
* * *
The sun was sinking and the light was failing in the hollows. …
…
… They had come to Mîm's house, NA-EX-27.5 Bar-en-Nibin-noeg,{ 16} which only ancient tales in Doriath and Nargothrond remembered, and no Men had seen. …
…
… Only from the north, as they had come, could it be reached with ease by those who knew the way. NA-EX-27.7{ 17}[Footnote to the text: The tall cliff through which Mîm led them by the cleft that he called "the gate of the garth" was (it appears) the north edge of the shelf; the cliffs on the eastern and western sides were much more precipitous.] From the cleft a path led, and passed soon into a little grove of dwarfed birches growing about a clear pool in a rock-hewn basin. …
…
Then Mîm rose, and looked long at Túrin. "I hear you," he said. "You speak like a Dwarf-lord of old; and at that I marvel. Now my heart is cooled, though it is not glad. My own ransom I will pay, therefore: you may dwell here, if you will. But this I will add: he that loosed the shaft shall break his bow and his arrows and lay them at my son's feet; and he shall never take arrow nor bear bow again. If he does, he shall die by it. That curse I lay on him."
Andróg was afraid when he heard of this curse; and though he did so with great grudge, he broke his bow and his arrows and laid them at the dead Dwarf's feet. But as he came out from the chamber, he glanced evilly at Mîm, and muttered: "The curse of a Dwarf never dies, they say; but a Man's too may come home. NA-TI-09 {May he die with a dart in his throat!}<NA; note 18 May he lack a bow at need ere his end.>"{ 18}
That night they lay in the hall and slept uneasily …

NA-TI-08.5: This note needs to be discussed. As it stands it could have been and footnote to the original text by JRR Tolkien, but that is nowhere said. If we do not provide it, the info has to be used in in Index, if ever we provide one.

NA-EX-27.5: The name needs a checking. As the note 16 gives a lot of variants: “Elsewhere the Sindarin name of the Petty-Dwarves is given as Noegyth Nibin (so in The Silmarillion p. 204) and Nibin-Nogrim. The "high moorlands that rose between the Vales of Sirion and Narog", north-east of Nargothrond (p. 104 above) are more than once referred to as the Moors of the Nibin-noeg (or variants of this name).”

NA-EX-27.7: This note also looks a bit as if it was in the original, we must consider it as a footnote to our text.

NA-TI-09: I think since Mîm died not with an dart in his throat, it is better to use the alternative cruse. In my mind this form would not refer to Húrins coming to Nargothrond but to Mîm’s capture by the Orcs. But the reference of the cruse is a minor point.

So began the abiding of Túrin son of Húrin in the halls of Mîm, in Bar-en-Danwedh, the House of Ransom.
NA-EX-28 <editorial addition Of Dor-Cúrathol>
NA-TI-10 <Ap Narn For a long while the life of the outlaws went well to their liking. …
…
Yet, and strange it seemed to them, with Túrin it went otherwise; and he became ever more friendly with the old Dwarf, and listened more and more to his counsels. In the winter that followed he would sit for long hours with Mîm, listening to his lore and the tales of his life; NA-TI-11 <Sil77 {For}for Mîm came of Dwarves that were banished in ancient days from the great Dwarf-cities of the east, and long before the return of Morgoth they wandered westward into Beleriand; but they became diminished in stature and in smith-craft, and they took to lives of stealth, walking with bowed shoulders and furtive steps. Before the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost came west over the mountains the Elves of Beleriand knew not what these others were, and they hunted them, and slew them; but afterwards they let them alone, and they were called Noegyth Nibin, the Petty-Dwarves, in the Sindarin tongue. They loved none but themselves, and if they feared and hated the Orcs, they hated the Eldar no less, and the Exiles most of all; for the Noldor, they said, had stolen their lands and their homes. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun; and beneath the crown of Amon Rûdh, the Bald Hill, the slow hands of the Petty-Dwarves had bored and deepened the caves through the long years that they dwelt there, untroubled by the Grey-elves of the woods. But now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle-earth, all save Mîm and his two sons; and Mîm was old even in the reckoning of Dwarves, old and forgotten. And in his halls the smithies were idle, and the axes rusted, and their name was remembered only in ancient tales of Doriath and Nargothrond.> {nor did} Túrin did not rebuke him if he spoke ill of the Eldar. Mîm seemed well pleased, and showed much favour to Túrin in return; him only would he admit to his smithy at times, and there they would talk softly together. NA-EX-28.5<Narn, Note 19 /Thus Túrin did learn /that there {were}[had been] ingots of gold disguised as roots/ in Mîm’s sack when they had captured him/, and {refers to}/ that/ Mîm {seeking}/had at that day sought/ {"}for old treasures of a dwarf-house near the 'flat stones'{"}.> Less pleased were the Men; and Andróg looked on with a jealous eye.>

NA-TI-12 <Sil77 But when the year drew on to midwinter, snow came down from the north heavier than they had known it in the river-vales, and Amon Rûdh was covered deep; and they said that the winters worsened in Beleriand as the power of Angband grew.> NA-EX-29 <Ap Narn {that through}Because of the improvidence of the outlaws food became short in Bar-en-Danwedh during the winter, and Mîm begrudged them the edible roots from his store{;}.>NA-EX-30 <Ap Narn At this time Andróg, seeking for Mîm's secret store of food, became lost in the caves, and found a hidden stair that led out on to the flat summit of Amon Rûdh/; but he did not at that time tell anybody of it./> NA-TI-13 <Sil77 Then only the hardiest dared stir abroad; and some fell sick, and all were pinched with hunger.> NA-EX-31 <Ap Narn {therefore}Therefore in the beginning of the year they went out on a hunting foray from the stronghold.> NA-EX-32 <Ap Narn And {either} during the foray just mentioned,{ or on a later occasion}, Andróg, having taken up again bow and arrows in defiance of Mîm's curse, was wounded by a poisoned shaft,> NA-EX-33 <Ap Narn {Beleg, approaching Amon Rûdh, came upon their tracks, and either trailed them to a camp which they were forced to make in a sudden snowstorm, or followed them back to Bar-en-Danwedh and slipped in after them.}/and a sudden snowstrom forced them to make a camp in the wild./> NA-TI-14 <Sil77 But in the dim dusk of a winter's day there appeared suddenly among them a man, as it seemed, of great bulk and girth, cloaked and hooded in white; and he walked up to the fire without a word. And when men sprang up in fear, he laughed, and threw back his hood, and beneath his wide cloak he bore a great pack; and in the light of the fire Túrin looked again on the face of Beleg Cúthalion.>
NA-EX-34 <Ap Narn Beleg, appraoching Amon Rûdh, {came}had come upon their tracks, and{ either} trailed them to {a}the camp{ which they were forced to make in a sudden snowstorm, or followed them back to Bar-en-Danwedh and slipped in after them}.>NA-TI-15 <Sil77 Thus Beleg returned once more to Túrin, and their meeting was glad; and with him he brought out of Dimbar the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin, thinking that it might lift Túrin's thought again above his life in the wilderness as the leader of a petty company.
But still Túrin would not return to Doriath; and Beleg yielding to his love against his wisdom remained with him, and did not depart, and in that time he laboured much for the good of Túrin's company. Those that were hurt or sick he tended, and gave to them the lembas of Melian{;}>. NA-EX-35 <Ap Narn {It may be mentioned here that when}When Beleg brought out the lembas from his pack {(see The Silmarillion pp. 202, 204) Túrin refused it: The}the silver leaves were red in the firelight; and when Túrin saw the seal his eyes darkened. "What have you there?" he said.
"The greatest gift that one who loves you still has to give," answered Beleg. "Here is lembas, the waybread of the Eldar, that no Man yet has tasted."
"The Helm of my fathers I take," said Túrin, "with good will for your keeping; but I will not receive gifts out of Doriath."
"Then send back your sword and your arms," said Beleg. "Send back also the teaching and fostering of your youth. And let your men die in the desert to please your mood. Nonetheless, this way-bread was a gift not to you but to me, and I may do with it as I will. Eat it not, if it sticks in your throat; but others here may be more hungry and less proud."
Then Túrin was abashed, and in that matter overcame his pride.> NA-TI-15.3 <Sil77 {and they}And his man were quickly healed, for though the Grey-elves were less in skill and knowledge than the Exiles from Valinor, in the ways of the life of Middle-earth they had a wisdom beyond the reach of Men.> NA-EX-36 <Ap Narn Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated; and Mîm's hatred of Beleg became all the fiercer, for he had thus "undone" his curse upon Andróg. "It will bite again," he said. It came into Mîm's mind that if he also ate the lembas of Melian he would renew his youth and grow strong again; and since he could not come at it by stealth he feigned sickness and begged it of his enemy. When Beleg refused it to him the seal was set upon Mîm's hatred, and all the more because of Túrin's love for the Elf.>
NA-TI-15.7 <Sil77 {And because}Because Beleg was strong and enduring, farsighted in mind as in eye, he came to be held in honour among the outlaws; but the hatred of Mîm for the Elf that had come into Bar-en-Danwedh grew ever greater, and he sat with Ibun his son in the deepest shadows of his house, speaking to none. But Túrin paid now little heed to the Dwarf; and when winter passed, and spring came, they had sterner work to do.>

NA-TI-16 <Sil77 Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, and perceiving more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest of them feared, save only Melian the Queen? To her often the thought of Morgoth reached out, and there was foiled.>
NA-TI-17 <Sil77 And now again the might of Angband was moved; and as the long fingers of a groping hand the forerunners of his armies probed the ways into Beleriand. Through Anach they came, and Dimbar was taken, and all the north marches of Doriath. Down the ancient road they came that led through the long defile of Sirion, past the isle where Minas Tirith of Finrod had stood, and so through the land between Malduin and Sirion, and on through the eaves of Brethil to the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]. Thence the road went on into the Guarded Plain; but the Orcs did not go far upon it, as yet, for there dwelt now in the wild a terror that was hidden, and upon the red hill were watchful eyes of which they had not been warned. For Túrin put on again the Helm of Hador; and far and wide in Beleriand the whisper went, under wood and over stream and through the passes of the hills, saying that the Helm and Bow that had fallen in Dimbar had arisen again beyond hope. Then many who went leaderless, dispossessed but undaunted, took heart again, and came to seek the Two Captains. Dor-Cúarthol, the Land of Bow and Helm, was in that time named all the region between {Teiglin}[Taeglin] and the west march of Doriath; and Túrin named himself anew, Gorthol, the Dread Helm, and his heart was high again.> NA-EX-37 <Ap Narn Túrin received gladly all who came to him, but by the counsel of Beleg he admitted no newcomer to his refuge upon Amon Rûdh (and that was now named Echad i Sedryn, Camp of the Faithful); the way thither only those of the Old Company knew and no others were admitted. But other guarded camps and forts were established round about: in the forest eastward, or in the highlands, or in the southward fens, from Methed-en-glad ("the End of the Wood") to Bar-erib some leagues south of Amon Rûdh; and from all these places men could see the summit of Amon Rûdh, and by signals receive tidings and commands.>
NA-EX-38 <Ap Narn {It is several times emphasized that }Beleg remained throughout opposed to Túrin's grand design, although he supported him;{ that} it seemed to him that the Dragon-helm had worked otherwise with Túrin than he had hoped; and{ that} he foresaw with a troubled mind what the days to come would bring. Scraps of his words with Túrin on these matters are preserved. {In one of these, they}They sat in the stronghold of Echad i Sedryn together, and Túrin said to Beleg:
"Why are you sad, and thoughtful? …
…
… and even help with needful things."
In another brief passage of speech between them Túrin replied to Beleg's warnings of the frailty of his power in these words:
"I wish to rule a land; but not this land. Here I desire only to gather strength. To my father's land in Dor-lómin my heart turns, and thither I shall go when I may.">
NA-EX-39 <Ap Narn In this way, before the summer had passed, the following of Túrin was swelled to a great force; and the power of Angband was thrown back. Word of this came even to Nargothrond, and many there grew restless, saying that if an Outlaw could do such hurt to the Enemy, what might not the Lord of Narog do. But Orodreth would not change his counsels. In all things he followed Thingol, with whom be exchanged messengers by secret ways; and he was a wise lord, according to the wisdom of those who considered first their own people, and how long they might preserve their life and wealth against the lust of the North. Therefore he allowed none of his people to go to Túrin, and he sent messengers to say to him that in all that he might do or devise in his war he should not set foot in the land of Nargothrond, nor drive Orcs thither. But help other than in arms he offered to the Two Captains, should they have need (and in this, it is thought, he was moved by Thingol and Melian).> NA-TI-18 <Sil77 {In Menegroth, and in the deep halls of Nargothrond, and} {even}Even in the hidden realm of Gondolin, the fame of the deeds of the Two Captains was heard; and in Angband also they were known. Then Morgoth laughed, for now by the Dragon-helm was Húrin's son revealed to him again; and ere long Amon Rûdh was ringed with spies.>
NA-EX-40 <Ap Narn It is also asserted that Morgoth for a time withheld his hand and made mere feints of attack, {"}So that by easy victory the confidence of these rebels might become overweening; as it proved indeed.{"}>
NA-TI-19 <Sil77 In the waning of the year Mîm the Dwarf and Ibun his son went out from Bar-en-Danwedh to gather roots in the wild for their winter store; and they were taken captive by Orcs. Then for a second time Mîm promised to guide his enemies by the secret paths to his home on Amon Rûdh; but yet he sought to delay the fulfilment of his promise, and demanded that Gorthol should not be slain. Then the Ore-captain laughed, and he said to Mîm: {'}["]Assuredly Túrin son of Húrin shall not be slain.{'}["]
Thus was Bar-en-Danwedh betrayed, for the Orcs came upon it by night at unawares, guided by Mîm. There many of Túrin's company were slain as they slept; but some fleeing by an inner stair came out upon the hill-top, and there they fought until they fell, and their blood flowed out upon the seregon that mantled the stone.> NA-EX-41 <Ap Narn It was only then that {he} [Andróg] revealed to Túrin the existence of the inner stair; and he was one of those who came by that way to the summit. There he is said to have fought more valiantly than any, NA-SL-02 but he fell at last{ mortally} wounded by an arrow; and thus the curse of Mîm {was fulfilled.}[came on him a second time; but alone of all]> <Aelfwine & Dirhaval A the outlaw-band of Túrin{, and alone}he survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh.> NA-TI-20 <Sil77 But a net was cast over Túrin as he fought, and he was enmeshed in it, and overcome, and led away.
And at length when all was silent again Mîm crept out of the shadows of his house; and as the sun rose over the mists of Sirion he stood beside the dead men on the hill-top. But he perceived that not all those that lay there were dead; for by one his gaze was returned, and he looked in the eyes of Beleg the Elf. Then with hatred long-stored Mîm stepped up to Beleg, and drew forth the sword Anglachel that lay beneath the body of one that had fallen beside him; but Beleg stumbling up seized back the sword and thrust it at the Dwarf, and Mîm in terror fled wailing from the hill-top. And Beleg cried after him: {'}["]The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!{'}["]>

NA-EX-28: This is the only subheading that I took out of nowhere. I don’t think we can go without it I could find any better.

NA-TI-10: What follows is a wild mixture of text from the appendix of the Narn and the Sil77. I hope it can be follwoed how it is builded.

NA-TI-11: I can already hear Aiwendil ask for the original source of this passage. I don’t think we can find it. It is based on Quendi and Eldar but it is heavily edited to make it fitting. We could try to make the same again, but I don’t see why we should invent the wheel a second time.

NA-EX-28.5: I found that the info from note 19 should be incooperated and this seemed the right place. In reading it now, I find that the reference to Túrins band and Andróg reads a bit strange. Maybe we can find a beter way to put these passages together.

NA-TI-12 - NA-TI-15.7: Belegs arrival must again be build out of many sources. The Sil77 provides the structure of the narrative.

NA-EX-29 - NA-EX-36: The Appendix to the Narn gives some further deatils.

NA-EX-29: The story of the raid is the best solution we have for Beleg finding them. But here we take at first only the reason for it to emphasys their situation.

NA-EX-30: Now here it is time for Andróg to search some food and discover the stair.

NA-EX-31 & NA-EX-32: Now here we come to the fated foray and I read the passage so that Andróg was wounded in that foray.

NA-EX-33 & NA-EX-34: I think we must decied which version (the camp in the wild or Bar-en-Danwedh we take and delete the other one.

NA-EX-35: In accordance to the Appendix to the Narn this bit about the Lemabas must be palced here.

NA-EX-36: The healing of the wound is thus associated with the healing of Túrins Man by Beleg in general.

NA-EX-37 - NA-EX-40: These are the best sources for the story of Dor-Curathol. The arangement must be discussed and also the details of editing.

NA-EX-41: As I put these passages together the revealation of the stair by Andróg is told some what in retrospect, but that was for the moment the best I found.

NA-SL-02: It is atested in Aelfwine and Dirhaval that Andróg survied, so we must make a change here.

That’s all for part 1 in the moment.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

In NA-TI-01, there are some accents that are missing: Dírhaval, Húrin, Andvír, Rûdh and Túrin.
I noticed that you erased the references to Eressëa and changed it to elves at first and then the plain deletion. I'm not 100% sure that they should be deleted but it seems as the best thing to do.

Regarding your work in the Nirnaeth, I think that you did a good job. It is true that trying to make an unifying battle seems difficult because of the diferent versions of the Narn and the Annals. I will post later my alternative.

[Aiwendil]

A few comments

I had hoped to get further with this, but I might as well post what comments I do have (up to EX-14).

NA-TI-01: Two thoughts on using the "Aelfwine and Dirhaval" text:

1. Is the use of first person ("But here I will tell as I may a Tale of Men that Dirhaval of the Havens made . . .") out of keeping with the rest of the project? I suppose one could call this a stylistic matter - however, I think that if our work is supposed to be merely an absolute narrative of events, the "I" should go. Who is "I", anyway? If the Aelfwine story is out, the introduction seems a bit out of place.

2. We must decide whether Andvir mentioned here contradicts the story of Turin and the outlaws as it stands in the Narn and the other late sources. I suppose that if one wants to get technical about it, it is nowhere stated that Androg did not have a son nor that none escaped the battle. But the story as it stands certainly suggests, to me at least, that the defeat of the outlaws was complete: only Beleg, Turin, and Mim survived - because they were, respectively, an Elf, taken alive by the Orcs, and a traitor. I am very hesitant to introduce the point that Andvir somehow survived and letting it stand alongside the latest versions of the battle. Also it would be remarkable that such a full text of the Narn omitted all mention of the fact that Androg had a son who was also in the band. So there are three options here:

a. We could decide there is no contradiction after all.
b. We could eliminate Andvir.
c. We could try to edit the Narn so as to resolve the contradiction in favor of the Andvir story.

Findegil wrote:

NA-EX-01: Since we already agreed to use the info given in this passaage, I don’t see any good reason not to use it.

Have we? It may be that we've already gone over these points and the discussion has slipped my mind.

NA-EX-02: The name is only given in text A. It might need a linguistical check.

I think it's perfectly good Sindarin. It is, unfortunately, slightly ambiguous whether the name of the mode is "minlamad thent/estent" or whether Tolkien simply couldn't decide between "minlamad thent" and "minlamad estent".

NA-EX-05: We do not know how this was dealt with inthe original text but in Sill77 the reference of “that battle” is clear from the circumstances but in this place it is not.

I don't think the addition is necessary. Compare GA:

It is said that at this time Hurin and Huor, the sons of Galion, were dwelling with Haleth their kinsman as fostersons (as the custom then was among northern Men); and they went both to battle with the Orcs, even Huor . . .

It's a pity we don't have the original Narn text here - I am tempted to suggest going with GA as the basic text for the section in preference to the '77, but then the latter probably has some features from the Narn version that it would be better to keep.

NA-EX-09: No problem with this, but isn't the source QS37 rather than Q30?

NA-EX-12: I wonder whether this is contradicted by GA:

And Haleth gathered his folk in Brethil, and they whetted their axes; but he died of age ere the war came, and Hundor his son ruled his people.

. . . which suggests that the Halethrim did not send a smaller force out of anger with Celegorm and Curufin. To be safe, I would use the GA version here.

NA-EX-14: I don't understand this. In Q30 and QS37 Maedhros's "first trial of strength" is not present. Whence comes this text and why do we need it?

[Findegil]

NA-TI-01:
Aiwendils 1. point: I wondered about the first person style here myself. If we decide not to use it that way we could also use the older version of the text instad of reforming the newer version.

Aiwendils 2. point: What we used was the information that Mablung did outlife the fall of Doriath and could be interviewed by Dirhaval.
The problem with Andvír is even greater: As Christopher Tolkien points out the text is clear that it is not Andvír that survived the battle of the sumit of Amon Rûdh but Andróg himself. From what I have understand in Aelfwine and Dírhaval even the first version of the text is younger than all accounts of the battle we have. Thus I think we have Andróg as the single survivor. And I did introduce that into the text (NA-SL-02).

NA-EX-02: From the text and its representation in Aelfwine and Dírhaval Version A and the information in note 3 to that chapter it seems clear to me that the name is "minlamad thent/estent".

NA-EX-05: I still think the addtion is neccesary. In GA and in Sil77 the battle of the Orcs against the combined forces of Brethil and Doriath is discriebed just before. But here in the Narn we do not tell about that battle at all. And in our work a full chapter of about 100 pages has gone by since that battle.

NA-EX-09: Sorry my mistake. You are right the source is QS37.

NA-EX-12: Well, I already halfe agreed to that when I made the text. If we skip this here we must also change the corrosponding sentence in the Lay of Leithian. But it is the saver way to deal with it.

NA-EX-14: Sorry my mistake, again. The source is QS37.
But that is a minor point. My idea was, that the early victories that the Union of Maedhros achieved were all only false, as it was stated in QS37. Clearly the "first trial of strength" was not present, but the sentence lifted form QS37 shows that the short freedom won by the Union for all Beleriand and even Dorthonion was already present and was deciefing of Morgoth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Looks like I will be going through the text piece by small piece. Further comments up to NA-EX-26:

NA-EX-16 {The Words of Húrin and Morgoth} <Sil77 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad> Many songs are sung and many tales are told by the Elves of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, in which Fingon fell and the flower of the Eldar withered. If all were retold a man's life would not suffice for the hearing

Isn't the source for this GA note 2 rather than QS77? Not that it really matters.

Then Fingon looked east and his elven-sight saw far off a dust and the glint of steel like stars in a mist, … … Then in the plain of Anfauglith, on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, all the sorrow of which no tale can contain.

Isn't there a section from either QS77 or GA in between here? It's not marked in the full text. I think we have:

. . . But the Captain of Morgoth in the west had been commanded to draw out Fingon from his hills by whatever means he could. <GAHe marched on therefore until the front of his battle was drawn up before the stream of Sirion . . .

And then back to GA note 2 with "Then in the plain of Anfauglith . . ."

Of all that befell in the eastward battle NA-EX-18<editorial additiononly a little should be told here>: {of the routing of Glaurung the Drake by the Naugrim of Belegost;}

I don't see the need for this sentence; I'd rather delete it than alter it.

NA-EX-19<GA {But even as}When the vanguard of {Maidros}[Maeðros] came upon{ the Orcs}, Morgoth loosed his {last}[greatest] strength{, and Angband was emptied}. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs{ a thousand}, and there came worms and drakes, and Glaurung, Father of Dragons. And the strength and terror of the Great Worm were now grown great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came {between}[upon] the hosts of {Maidros}[Maeðros]{ and Fingon} and swept them apart.>

The deletion of "the Orcs" in "came upon {the Orcs}" leaves an ungrammatical sentence.

NA-EX-21 , -22: I don't understand why sections 231 and 232 of GA have been switched; indeed, it makes senseless the "yet" in "Yet neither by wolf, balrog, nor dragon . . ."

Findegil wrote:

Thus the course of the battle is based on the Narn version, but we must consider these changed course ot the battle. It might prove to be unworkable.

Indeed, we must decide about the whole issue of Uldor's machinations. The Narn excises them entirely - at least, so it seems; it's difficult to be sure, since the Narn focuses only on the western battle. It is a little difficult to determine what was rejected from the earlier accounts and what was simply omitted in this version. It is also difficult to integrate GA and the Narn at points, particularly with regard to the coming of Turgon and the relation of the eastern battle and the western battle. This might be easier if we had the whole Narn text. I think it may turn out to be best to revert to the GA story with regard to the events unfolding in the east. At least, Christopher Tolkien seems to think that the new story is unworkable.

Another general consideration is to what extent we can trust that the QS77 text is an accurate presentation of the Narn text. Christopher tells us that "other features of the story as told in The Silmarillion that are not found in GA are derived from the Narn", and gives a few specific examples. Yet I can't help but to wonder whether any further changes were made. Actually, it would be quite uncharacteristic of his general procedure in the '77 to use a large passage from any text without at least a few modifications. Mister Underhill has noted (some time ago) that the whole element of Gothmog's "troll guard" (which may raise several problems with regard to trolls functioning in sunlight) is found nowhere but in this passage in the '77, which we can only guess comes from the Narn.

Findegil wrote:

Aiwendils 1. point: I wondered about the first person style here myself. If we decide not to use it that way we could also use the older version of the text instad of reforming the newer version.

Actually, the problem is larger than that, I think. Aelfwine is out in our version. With that in mind, I must say that the whole introduction starts to seem quite out of place.

The problem with Andvír is even greater: As Christopher Tolkien points out the text is clear that it is not Andvír that survived the battle of the sumit of Amon Rûdh but Andróg himself. From what I have understand in Aelfwine and Dírhaval even the first version of the text is younger than all accounts of the battle we have. Thus I think we have Andróg as the single survivor. And I did introduce that into the text (NA-SL-02).

Ah, right. I should never trust my memory. I will comment on the changed storyline in due course.

NA-EX-02: From the text and its representation in Aelfwine and Dírhaval Version A and the information in note 3 to that chapter it seems clear to me that the name is "minlamad thent/estent".

CRT thinks so, anyway. I don't think the other view is entirely out of the question, but I suppose I agree that it is most likely the full name.

NA-EX-05: I still think the addtion is neccesary. In GA and in Sil77 the battle of the Orcs against the combined forces of Brethil and Doriath is discriebed just before. But here in the Narn we do not tell about that battle at all. And in our work a full chapter of about 100 pages has gone by since that battle.

I suppose you're right.

[Findegil]

Sorry for the late response, thing are becoming dense in my privat life.

NA-EX-16: Aiwendil posted:

Isn't the source for this GA note 2 rather than QS77? Not that it really matters.

GA note 2 does not give any indication if there was a headline for the battle. It did only indicate what was left out in UT. But it would be rather strange (in my view at least) if the battle would be described under the headline “The Words of Húrin and Morgoth”, therefore I adopted the headline from the Quenta Silmarillion.

NA-TI-04: Aiwendil posted:

Isn't there a section from either QS77 or GA in between here? It's not marked in the full text.

Well, the hole passage which is marked NA-TI-04 from “Here then shall be recounted …” to “nor any of the Men of Hador, nor any tidings of the battle and the fate of their lords.” is a silently reconstructed text. This means it is reconstructed from the Sil77 with the information given in GA, note2. If you wish for a clearer indication of what comes from which source I will rework that passage. But it will take some time before I can do this.

NA-EX-18: Okay, I did not think of deleting the sentence. It is a good idea.

NA-EX-19: What about this:

NA-EX-19<GA {But even as}When the vanguard of {Maidros}[Maeðros] came {upon the Orcs}up, Morgoth loosed his {last}[greatest] strength{, and Angband was emptied}. …

NA-EX-21, NA-EX-22 & the issue of GA versus Narn: The passages are switched because I followed the single sentence of the Narn-Version that deals with the eastern battle as close as possible. The passage in the Narn reads:

Then in the plain of Anfauglith, on the fourth day of the war, there began the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, all the sorrow of which no tale can contain. Of all that befell in the eastward battle: of the routing of Glaurung the Drake by the Naugrim of Belegost; of the treachery of the Easterlings and the overthrow of the host of Maeðros and the flight of the Sons of Fëanor, no more is here said. In the west the host of Fingon retreated over the sands ...

In this sentence the order is changed and I followed this since it is all we have of the course of the battle in the east as Tolkien later saw it. I only elaborated the single issues (“the routing of Glaurung”; “the treachery of the Easterlings”; “the overthrow of the host of Maeðros”) with the corresponding passages of GA. I also see some points of problem with the integration and on is the issue of “Yet” that Aiwendil mentioned.
But after producing the text as it stands now I don’t think it is impossible to take the course of the battle described in the Narn as a basis. Beside the fact that it is Tolkiens last idea, I think it is in my view better than the old story. In the old story I got the feeling that had Maedhors timing worked, the battle would have had a different result. In the Narn the timing did work, but the forces of Morgoth were so overwhelming that Maedhors planed failed (mostly because of the treachery of the Easterlings).

Aiwendil wrote:

Another general consideration is to what extent we can trust that the QS77 text is an accurate presentation of the Narn text. Christopher tells us that "other features of the story as told in The Silmarillion that are not found in GA are derived from the Narn", and gives a few specific examples. Yet I can't help but to wonder whether any further changes were made. Actually, it would be quite uncharacteristic of his general procedure in the '77 to use a large passage from any text without at least a few modifications. Mister Underhill has noted (some time ago) that the whole element of Gothmog's "troll guard" (which may raise several problems with regard to trolls functioning in sunlight) is found nowhere but in this passage in the '77, which we can only guess comes from the Narn.

So what you suggest is that we have to mistrust Christopher Tolkien to the degree that he would add such features as the Troll-guard into the Sil77 out of the blue and does not tell us so in the GA but rather deceives us with the general sentence about “other features”? That is not to say that I think the Sil77-text is one to one from the Narn-version. I am absolutely sure that Christopher Tolkien made many editorial alterations that he did not list in the GA, note 2, but when we lock to other parts of the Sil77 such editorial alterations not listed in the corresponding HoME-section are small alterations of style or grammatical features. To introduce a otherwise unrecorded species into the first age is fare beyond that level and would surely have found its way to the comments in GA. So I am against using GA here. The Narn was the alter account and we have that text even if it is edited by Christopher Tolkien. (On the other hand all the text of the Narn in UT is edited by Christopher Tolkien and we have near to no information to what degree.)
About the problems with the troll-guard: When Húrin killed 70 of them it was night so that does not create a problem. We are told about Trolls, that they were a product of the earlier day when there was no sun-light. Gothmog was also around at that time so it is possible that his guard was a relic of older days, not really much useful in the days of the sun, but still a force of his own that he could use anywhere in the underground kingdom of his master, and during the night also outside of it. Beside that the last stand of Húrin took place near to Taur-nu-Fuin, and I think that in a wood of such a name it might be that Trolls could even move around during the daylight.
In conclusion I see the problem but I can’t feel it a good reason to mistrust it origin of the troll-gurad from JRR Tolkien.

Aiwendil wrote:

Aelfwine is out in our version. With that in mind, I must say that the whole introduction starts to seem quite out of place.

I agree that Aelfwine is out in our version, but not to the conclusion drawn from it that no introductions are possible. If we look at the Sil77 chapter Of Beren and Lúthien it has a kind of introduction. So I don’t see any good reason to skip the intro completely. I still see the problem of first person telling as it is done in the second version of the intro. As suggested above the second version micght be easier to deal with in that respect. I will try that out here:

NA-TI-01b< Aelfwine & Dirhaval A Here begins that tale which {Ælfwine}[was] made from the {Húrinien}[Narn i Chîn Húrin]: which is the longest of all the lays of Beleriand now held in memory {in Eressea}[by the Elves]. But it is said {there}[by them] that, though made in Elvish speech and using much Elvish lore (especially of Doriath), this lay was the work of a Mannish poet, {Dirhavel}[Dirhaval], who lived at the Havens in the days of {Earendel}[Earendil] and there gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of {Dorlómin}[Dor-lómin], of Nargothrond, or of Doriath. From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Andróg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh. Otherwise all that time between the flight of Túrin from Doriath and his coming to Nargothrond, and Túrin's deeds in those days, would have remained hidden, save the little that was remembered among the people of Nargothrond concerning such matters as Gwindor or Túrin ever revealed. In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear. This lay was all that {Dirhavel}[Dirhaval] ever made, but it was prized by the Elves and remembered by them. {Dirhavel}[Dirhaval] they say perished in the last raid of the sons of Fëanor upon the Havens. His lay was composed in that mode of verse which was called Minlamad thent / estent. {Though this verse was not wholly unlike the verse known to Ælfwine, he translated the lay into prose (including in it, or adding in the margins as seemed fit to him, matter from the Elvish commentaries that he had heard or seen); for he was not himself skilled in the making of verse, and the transference of this long tale from Elvish into English was difficult enough. Indeed even as it was made, with the help of the Elves as it would seem from his notes and additions, in places his account is obscure.}
This version into 'modern' {English}[language], that is forms of {English}[language] intelligible to living users of {the English}[this] tongue (who have some knowledge of letters, and are not limited to the language of daily use from mouth to mouth) does not attempt to imitate the idiom of {Ælfwine, nor that of} the Elvish which often shows through especially in the dialogue. But since it is even to Elves now 'a tale of long ago', and depicts high and ancient persons and their speech (such as Thingol and Melian), there{ is in Ælfwine's version, and clearly} was in {Dirhavel}[Dirhaval]'s day, much archaic language, of words and usage, and the older and nobler Elves do not speak in the same style as Men, or in quite the same language as that of the main narrative; there are therefore here retained similar elements. It is for this reason that, for example, Thingol's speech is not that of our present day: for indeed the speech of Doriath, whether of the king or others, was even in the days of Túrin more antique than that used elsewhere. One thing (as Mîm observed) of which Túrin never rid himself, despite his grievance against Doriath, was the speech he had acquired during his fostering. Though a Man, he spoke like an Elf of the Hidden Kingdom{, which is as though a Man should now appear, whose speech and schooling until manhood had been that of some secluded country where the English had remained nearer that of the court of Elizabeth I than of Elizabeth II}.>

Here the element of Aelfwine was deleted by me and the first person narrator was not included by Tolkien. The text is now that of an unnamed later editor. To make it even more obscure I did also delete all references to English. It seems to me that this works a bit better than the other version.

NA-EX-12: I still hesitate to eliminate the motive of the “treacherous shaft of Curufin remembered by Men” completely. Would it be possible to add it in this weekend form: NA-EX-12<QS The treacherous shaft of Curufin that wounded Beren was remembered among Men. Therefore{ of} the folk of Haleth that dwelt in Brethil{ only the half came forth, and they} went not to join {Maidros}[Maeðros], but came rather to Fingon{ and Turgon} in the West.> Some thoughts of mine to this: The folk of Brethil had to that time not made any alliance to the Elves save only Doriath. Thus Maedhros could have hoped to add them to his force since they were long ago rescued by Caranthir. But with the deeds of Curufin remembered about them they did disobey Maedhros bidding and joined Fingon.

So fare for the moment.
Respectfully
Findegil

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The simple matter first:
Posted by Aran:Since we used Text A neither of the words are included.

You added them in:

Originally Posted by Findegil

See?

Now there remain a view questions to be cleared:
a) When did Andróg got his wound healed by Beleg?
Christopher Tolkien did place it in CoH not at the raid in the winter, which brought Beleg upon the track of the outlaws but in the spring of that year. Christopher Tolkien did not use that winter raid at all. Do we us it? And if so, is this the oportunity for Andróg to get his wound?
b) Which curse does Andróg utter against Mîm?
Christopher Tolkien used in CoH the one with the arrow in the throat. And reading the Narn he gives that version some more wieght their as well.
c) How does Mîm die in the end?
My image from the text of TT was a blow with Húrins fist that felt the old Dwarf. At least it was not with bow and arrow since it was said Húrin 'smite' him. But then we have the Q30 text and last but not least the note in the plot synopsis given in WH, which do not at all mention how Mîm dies.

About c) that is my first idea: We try to get Húrin aktily smite him so Mîm does not die at once. When he utters his curse above the Huirn's men carrying the dragon hoard of, one unnamed kills him with an arrow as ban was done with in the Lay:

Respectfully
Findegil

a) I suggest retaining the winter raid, and moving the healing then.

b & c) I stick by my original suggestion regarding the "alternate" curse, but the original curse could work with your version, which I like as well.

[Aiwendil]

It seems Androg turns out to be rather a difficult issue. Sorry in advance for a long post.

Findegil wrote:

Now to Andróg, Andvír and all that matter: Dírhaval composed his Lay in the Haevens after he spoke to Mablung. Thus not before 507 FA. He perished in the attack of the Feanorians up on the Haevens in 538 FA. The battle on the sumit of Amon Rudh took place in the year 489 FA. Now Andvír is described as very old in text A. I would think that means about 70 years. Even if he was found late by Dírhaval, let's say in 535 FA he would have been born around 465 FA and would have been around 24 years at the battle of Amon Rudh. Even assuming that Andvir was only 65 at that late date would make him 19 at the battle. Thus Andróg must have been older than what we expected. At the very least about 40 years.

After presenting such a nice solution earlier, you have made a very good case against it! I had forgotten about the upper limit of 538 FA for the meeting of Dírhaval with a 'very old' Andvír. In view of this, my earlier suggestion that Andróg was a young man when in the outlaw band and that Andvír was born after the battle at Amon Rudh is completely untenable.

Let me take a step back for a moment and try to look at the problem in my usual pedantic way. I think there are three critical questions:

1. Does the sentence in 'Aelfwine and Dirhaval' refer to Andróg or Andvír?

2. Does A&D pre-date or post-date the 'Narn' texts that contain the story of Andróg's death?

3. To what extent does the statement in A&D contradict the story in the 'Narn'?
The real meaning of this question depends on the answer to 2; if A&D is later, the question is whether it sufficiently indicates 'the details of what is to be changed' per principle 2b; if A&D is earlier, the question is whether the 'Narn' necessitates that the statement in A&D be removed.

On question 1, I am still inclined toward the Andróg-interpretation, though I agree with Aran that it is not the only tenable one. The main reason is that I find it curious that, if Andvír was a member of Turin's band, he was never mentioned in the 'Narn', particularly if we accept CT's guess that the two texts are very roughly contemporaneous. If A&D was written shortly before the relevant portions of the Narn, then surely Tolkien would have introduced Andvír in the latter. If A&D was written shortly after the Narn, it is strange (though not impossible) that Tolkien would invent a new character so at odds with the story he had just formulated.

I actually think it most probable that Tolkien intended Andróg to survive and sire Andvír after the battle at Amon Rudh and simply did not observe the inconsistency in the dates when he wrote that Andvír was 'very old' when Dirhaval spoke with him. But I don't have any hard evidence for this conclusion.

Question 2 is yet another place where a 'History of the Turin saga' would be a great help. As it is we have nothing to go on save CT's brief remarks on the dating in XI. Actually, when taken at face value CT seems to contradict himself. He says of the text A of A&D first that:

this story [i.e. the part of the Narn with Androg in it] was fully in being (so far as it ever went) when A was written

This would suggest that A&D was written after the Androg story in the 'Narn' was already worked out. But then he adds:

indeed it seems likely enough that A belongs to the time when my father was working on it.

This, on the contrary, suggests that at the time A&D was written, JRRT had not yet arrived at the 'final' form (such as it is) of the story of Androg's role in Turin's band - in which case, the final version of that story superceded the statement in A&D about Androg and Andvir. Possibly what CT means is that A&D is later but not much later. But in any case, CT here seems to be drawing his conclusions based mainly on the content of A&D rather than external evidence and so is actually not much better a judge than we are.

If I had again to venture a guess as to the truth, my guess would be that A&D is later than the central portions of the Narn. It seems to me more likely that Tolkien would first invent Androg and his history and then later give him a son and use him to 'explain' the transmission of the legend than the reverse (that he would invent Androg and Andvir together to explain the transmission and then eliminate Andvir and/or create the story of Androg's death, thus ruling him out as the transmitter of the legend). Indeed, if it weren't for CT's surmise that A&D dates from much the same time as the 'Narn', I would have thought it a much later text, by which time Tolkien had either forgotten the details of the 'Narn' or had conceived of some large changes to its story. Again, though, there's no hard evidence.

Finally, question 3. Clearly there is some contradiction between the Narn texts we have and A&D. I suppose the simplest scenario to evaluate would be the one where A&D was written before the Narn story was finalized (that is, as finalized as it ever was). In this case, since in the Narn Androg dies at Amon Rudh and Andvir is pretty clearly not in the story, the Narn would take precedence and the statement in A&D would have to be removed entirely.

The much more difficult question is, if A&D is later than the Narn texts, is it sufficiently clear to us how the Narn should be changed that we can justify those changes? This is complicated (just our luck) by the fact that the answer may be contingent on the answer to 1 - is it Androg or Andvir that survives?

If we could be sure it was Androg, then I think Findegil's suggestion about moving his healing by Beleg to after the battle would pretty clearly be the best way to go. However, this would leave us with another serious problem - the issue of the dates that Findegil has pointed out. If Andvir was not born until after 489, he cannot have been 'very old' before 538. That makes this path look like a dead end to me.

What if we could be sure it was Andvir who was intended, as a member of Turin's band, to survive? I think this would necessitate some big changes to the 'Narn' - certainly more than just inserting mention of his name. Androg is said to have been hunted from Dor-lomin for the slaying of a woman. It seems to me very strange indeed that he should bring his son with him into outlawry. Worse, I think the portrayal of Androg in the Narn is rather at odds with his being old enough to have a grown son (especially given the point I made earlier about Algund, the oldest of the band, having been at the Nirnaeth).

I don't know what conclusions to draw from all this, other than that the more I look at it, the thornier this issue becomes. My old fallback suggestion - ambiguity - is not really useful here, as it's simply not feasible (or desirable) to produce a version that does not state whether Androg survived the battle or whether he had a son in the band.

[Findegil]

About scop and walhstod:
Aran look into post #6. There we removed the younger text B and put in text A. Where by the problem you adressed correctly was solved.

Aiwendil worte:

It seems Androg turns out to be rather a difficult issue. Sorry in advance for a long post.

There is no need to appology for long posts, we love them!
Still the problem of Andróg is thorny. About Algund:
The Year of Lamentation was 472 FA. But we are not told if Algund was young or old for soldier in that battle. Of course, if he was young man in that battle (lets say 20 years) he would in 484 FA (when Túrin became a member) not have been the oldest in the outlaw band. I think we have to picture him more like an old retainer who fled the filed. Let assume he is 60 when he dies at Amon Rudh, he would then porbably be still battle fit, even so long past his prime. He would then have been 55 when the band encounter Túrin. Still old enough to be the oldest of such a band. During the Arnoediad he would then have been 43, which is a good age for an old campainer.

Seeing the figures we have here and in the last post, I would assume that most of the outlaws (Andróg included) did their crimes before the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Especially if we consider the poeple from Dor-lómin, since that land was guarded after the battle.

Follwoing that line of thinking, Andvír was born about 465, I assumed, thus he was only 7 years at the Nirnaeth. This makes it, for me unlikely that he was born and raised in Dor-lómin. Thus he probably was the son of an already outlawed Andróg. If I assume now farther that he was the son of Andróg with a wive from the wood-men south of Taeglin. As we see Andróg being part of such crimes of Forwegs planed rap of Larnachs daughter, Andvír could be the outcome of such crime or (more likely) of an willing sexual intercourse with a younger and supposedly atractiv Andróg. May that be as it is, Andvír was for sure with such an ancestry an outsider in his society. Thus he probably joined the band in which his father was prominent. The most likely time for that would be gathering of forces when the land of Bow and Helm was raised. That means he probably was not in the original tryst, but one of the newcomers stationed in the additional camps.

All that is interesting but it does not help us any farther.
Lets go back to the core sentence again:

From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Andróg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh.

Lest extract simple statments:
- Andvír was the man interview by Dírhaval not Andróg.
- Andvír was very old at that time -> born before the battle of Amon Rudh.
- Andvír was the son of Andróg.
- Andróg was in the outlaw-band of Túrin.
- One of them (more likely Andróg, by the structer of the sentence) survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh.

What do we learn from this:
- Andvír was not necessarly a member of Túrins band.
- Andvír was the source of information because he was Andrógs son, not on his own right.
- Thus at one time or an other there must have been communication between Andróg and Andvír.

This does give even more wieght to Andróg as the surviver of the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh.

Now lets look at the story line of that battle in CoH:
- Turin and Co. reach the summit, and defend themself at the outer stair.
- Andróg is wounded by an arrow, and lies as death.
- Turin and Beleg retreat with the others to the center stone and are taken capitive their, while the companiens are slain.
- The Orcs carry Túrin away.
- The Orcs prostrate Beleg.
- The Orc ransack Bar-en-Danwedh
- The Orcs depart from Amon Rudh.
- When all is silent, Mîm comes to the summit.
- Andróg frightens the dwarf away and frees Beleg, before he dies (if he does in our version).

Would you not say, that the battle was over when the Orcs started the ransacking of Bar-en-Danwedh? Would it be a big stretch to say that Andróg survived the battle even so he died a few hours later from the wound recived there when obviously all other members of Túrins band died on the spot?

Aside from that question, can we contrive a story line with Andvír the comunicator the tale and Andróg dying at the summit?
I think we can. Andvír was in the band or in the greater army and had communications with Andróg, he might have searched the battle ground after the fight and read all the signs there to construct the tale we have. We can even assume that he communicated with Beleg before Beleg started the hunt after the Orcs.

To be on the safe side we could simply skip the one half-sentence about the sole surviver. All the rest of the texts we have fits together.

What we are left with are for one thing the sentence about Húrins later dealings with Mîm. And I am minded to let that simply stand as it is. Andvír could have been in Húrins Band without mentioning him any farther. Which only mean that in the deads of that band he had not role of prominence. He was simply a member and withnessed the events. Most probably he was not only the fromer member of Túrins troups of the land of Bow and Helm in Húrins band. The splinters of that troups would form a perfect source for Húrins collection.

Another thing is the death of Mîm. And I am minded to seperate that now completly from the other points discussed. If we belive that Andrógs curse became true, Mîm must dy with an arrow in his throut. If not we can take the simple slaying of Mîm by Húrin from TT.

For me it is on the one hand the death of a (otherwise unconnected) dwarf warden of a dragon hoard against the death of the traitor of Túrin. The connection of Mîm with the traitor of Túrin was a very late development. It did not find its way into the Grey Annals. Thus we are left with only two sources about the means of the death of the taitor: The Lay where it is Ban son of Bor and Andróg's curse against Mîm. Since they agree in the way in which the traitor dies, I think they should prevail over the death of Mîm the unconnected dwarf-warden.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Probably I top your length, Aiwendil.

[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

It seems Androg turns out to be rather a difficult issue. Sorry in advance for a long post.

Findegil wrote:


After presenting such a nice solution earlier, you have made a very good case against it! I had forgotten about the upper limit of 538 FA for the meeting of Dírhaval with a 'very old' Andvír. In view of this, my earlier suggestion that Andróg was a young man when in the outlaw band and that Andvír was born after the battle at Amon Rudh is completely untenable.

Let me take a step back for a moment and try to look at the problem in my usual pedantic way. I think there are three critical questions:

1. Does the sentence in 'Aelfwine and Dirhaval' refer to Andróg or Andvír?

2. Does A&D pre-date or post-date the 'Narn' texts that contain the story of Andróg's death?

3. To what extent does the statement in A&D contradict the story in the 'Narn'?
The real meaning of this question depends on the answer to 2; if A&D is later, the question is whether it sufficiently indicates 'the details of what is to be changed' per principle 2b; if A&D is earlier, the question is whether the 'Narn' necessitates that the statement in A&D be removed.

On question 1, I am still inclined toward the Andróg-interpretation, though I agree with Aran that it is not the only tenable one. The main reason is that I find it curious that, if Andvír was a member of Turin's band, he was never mentioned in the 'Narn', particularly if we accept CT's guess that the two texts are very roughly contemporaneous. If A&D was written shortly before the relevant portions of the Narn, then surely Tolkien would have introduced Andvír in the latter. If A&D was written shortly after the Narn, it is strange (though not impossible) that Tolkien would invent a new character so at odds with the story he had just formulated.

...

The much more difficult question is, if A&D is later than the Narn texts, is it sufficiently clear to us how the Narn should be changed that we can justify those changes? This is complicated (just our luck) by the fact that the answer may be contingent on the answer to 1 - is it Androg or Andvir that survives?

There is actually one bit of evidence that hasn't been mentioned. Text B, which clearly does come after the Narn text, contains no mention of either Andróg or his son. This may be interpreted as meaning that text A did in fact precede the Narn text, and B was written so as to match the new story.

Originally Posted by Findegil

About scop and walhstod:
Aran look into post #6. There we removed the younger text B and put in text A. Where by the problem you adressed correctly was solved.

My humblest apologies. I have the unfortunate predilection of spotting a single problem, and then immediately commenting on it before reading further. I must confess, I still haven't read every post in this thread.

All that is interesting but it does not help us any farther.
Lets go back to the core sentence again:Lest extract simple statments:
- Andvír was the man interview by Dírhaval not Andróg.
- Andvír was very old at that time -> born before the battle of Amon Rudh.
- Andvír was the son of Andróg.
- Andróg was in the outlaw-band of Túrin.
- One of them (more likely Andróg, by the structer of the sentence) survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh.

What do we learn from this:
- Andvír was not necessarly a member of Túrins band.
- Andvír was the source of information because he was Andrógs son, not on his own right.
- Thus at one time or an other there must have been communication between Andróg and Andvír.

This does give even more wieght to Andróg as the surviver of the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh.

Now lets look at the story line of that battle in CoH:
- Turin and Co. reach the summit, and defend themself at the outer stair.
- Andróg is wounded by an arrow, and lies as death.
- Turin and Beleg retreat with the others to the center stone and are taken capitive their, while the companiens are slain.
- The Orcs carry Túrin away.
- The Orcs prostrate Beleg.
- The Orc ransack Bar-en-Danwedh
- The Orcs depart from Amon Rudh.
- When all is silent, Mîm comes to the summit.
- Andróg frightens the dwarf away and frees Beleg, before he dies (if he does in our version).

Would you not say, that the battle was over when the Orcs started the ransacking of Bar-en-Danwedh? Would it be a big stretch to say that Andróg survived the battle even so he died a few hours later from the wound recived there when obviously all other members of Túrins band died on the spot?

Aside from that question, can we contrive a story line with Andvír the comunicator the tale and Andróg dying at the summit?
I think we can. Andvír was in the band or in the greater army and had communications with Andróg, he might have searched the battle ground after the fight and read all the signs there to construct the tale we have. We can even assume that he communicated with Beleg before Beleg started the hunt after the Orcs.

To be on the safe side we could simply skip the one half-sentence about the sole surviver. All the rest of the texts we have fits together.

What we are left with are for one thing the sentence about Húrins later dealings with Mîm. And I am minded to let that simply stand as it is. Andvír could have been in Húrins Band without mentioning him any farther. Which only mean that in the deads of that band he had not role of prominence. He was simply a member and withnessed the events. Most probably he was not only the fromer member of Túrins troups of the land of Bow and Helm in Húrins band. The splinters of that troups would form a perfect source for Húrins collection.

Another thing is the death of Mîm. And I am minded to seperate that now completly from the other points discussed. If we belive that Andrógs curse became true, Mîm must dy with an arrow in his throut. If not we can take the simple slaying of Mîm by Húrin from TT.

For me it is on the one hand the death of a (otherwise unconnected) dwarf warden of a dragon hoard against the death of the traitor of Túrin. The connection of Mîm with the traitor of Túrin was a very late development. It did not find its way into the Grey Annals. Thus we are left with only two sources about the means of the death of the taitor: The Lay where it is Ban son of Bor and Andróg's curse against Mîm. Since they agree in the way in which the traitor dies, I think they should prevail over the death of Mîm the unconnected dwarf-warden.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: Probably I top your length, Aiwendil.

I agree with the bold parts, but I would like to comment on the underlined part. I'll quote the line again for clarity's sake:

From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Andróg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh.

Now, I'll try and break this sentence into clauses:

1. "From Mablung he learned much" - Okay, so Dirhavel talked to Mablung. Nothing helpful here.
2. "by fortune also he found a man named Andvír" - Dirhavel found a man named Andvír. Now we're getting somewhere.
3. "he was very old" - He (Andvír) was very old when Dirhavel spoke to him.
4. "but was the son of that Andróg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin" - Andvír was the son of the same Andróg who was in Túrin's band.
5. "and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh." - Someone survived the battle at Amon Rudh.

Now, let me make my point. In clause 2, Andvír was introduced. Then he is described in both clauses 3 and 4. My point is this; if he is being described in one clause, and then again in the next, is it so much of a stretch to assume the next clause describes him as well?

I know that Tolkien's comma makes things messy when the sentence is all together, but you have to remember that Professor Tolkien did not follow what are now the standard rules for punctuation. When you forget the punctuation, and simply break the sentence down into it's logical progression of thought, it becomes much easier to see that the sentence is more likely referring to Andvír.

[Aiwendil]

Let me come back to the three questions I posed.

1. Does the sentence in 'Aelfwine and Dirhaval' refer to Andróg or Andvír?

It seems that Findegil is inclined to read it as referring to Androg and Aran as referring to Andvir. I must say that I don't think this can be answered from the structure of the sentence alone. The sentence could easily mean either. That is, it could be parsed as:

and he was very old, but was the son of that Andróg {who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin}, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh.

or:

and he was very old, but was the son of that Andróg {who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh}.

There's simply no way of telling based on the syntax whether 'he' or 'who' is the subject of 'survived'.

I still think, however, that the absence of any reference to Andvir in the Narn texts suggests the Androg-interpretation. This is particularly true if A&D A precedes the relevant portion of the Narn. For if he had just invented Andvir and intended for him to be a member of Turin's band, why then introduce Androg but not Andvir in the Narn? And if he had already rejected this version of the transmission of the legend, why introduce Androg at all?

2. Does A&D pre-date or post-date the 'Narn' texts that contain the story of Andróg's death?

Aran wrote:

There is actually one bit of evidence that hasn't been mentioned. Text B, which clearly does come after the Narn text, contains no mention of either Andróg or his son. This may be interpreted as meaning that text A did in fact precede the Narn text, and B was written so as to match the new story.

A good point, but we must bear in mind that B is also briefer and rather different in intention from A. It seems to me, then, very likely that the absence of Androg and Andvir from B does not imply the rejection of this version of the transmission.

Though I still think the question of the relative dating is a very difficult one that may not in the end be answerable, the more I think about it the more likely it seems to me that A&D A was written after the middle portions of the Narn. When Tolkien says in A&D that Andvir 'was the son of that Andróg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin' it sounds rather more to me like he is referring to a character named Androg who already exists than like he is inventing a new character. One thing that gives me pause, however, is that it would be a little surprising for Tolkien to so casually contradict the story of Mim's curse and Androg's death, which he had so carefully developed, without projecting some alternative. In this connection, I find Findegil's proposal very interesting:

Follwoing that line of thinking, Andvír was born about 465, I assumed, thus he was only 7 years at the Nirnaeth. This makes it, for me unlikely that he was born and raised in Dor-lómin. Thus he probably was the son of an already outlawed Andróg. If I assume now farther that he was the son of Andróg with a wive from the wood-men south of Taeglin. As we see Andróg being part of such crimes of Forwegs planed rap of Larnachs daughter, Andvír could be the outcome of such crime or (more likely) of an willing sexual intercourse with a younger and supposedly atractiv Andróg. May that be as it is, Andvír was for sure with such an ancestry an outsider in his society. Thus he probably joined the band in which his father was prominent. The most likely time for that would be gathering of forces when the land of Bow and Helm was raised. That means he probably was not in the original tryst, but one of the newcomers stationed in the additional camps.

. . .

- Andvír was not necessarly a member of Túrins band.
- Andvír was the source of information because he was Andrógs son, not on his own right.
- Thus at one time or an other there must have been communication between Andróg and Andvír.

. . .

Would you not say, that the battle was over when the Orcs started the ransacking of Bar-en-Danwedh? Would it be a big stretch to say that Andróg survived the battle even so he died a few hours later from the wound recived there when obviously all other members of Túrins band died on the spot?

I must admit I never thought of the possibility that Andvir was born after Androg was outlawed but before the time when Turin joins the outlaws, nor that he was alive then but not in the band. And I think you make an excellent point that in the Narn Androg does survive the battle and dies shortly thereafter. This interpretation is particularly attractive since it would provide a very nice answer to my third question:

3. To what extent does the statement in A&D contradict the story in the 'Narn'?

If we accept Findegil's proposal, then the answer is that A&D does not contradict the Narn at all. Which, of course, would mean that both A&D and the Narn could stand without further alterations needed to either.

I do have one small doubt about this reading, though. To go back once more to the infamous sentence in A&D:

From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Andróg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh.

On Findegil's interpration, while this statement is completely true, the clause 'and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh' would appear to be a bit of a non sequitur. The rest of the sentence is concerned with establishing the credentials of Dirhavel's sources. It is mentioned that Androg is Andvir's father because this explains how Andvir knew details of the story. But why then mention that Androg survived the battle? If, as in the Narn, he died immediately after it, then this statement cannot have any relevance to Andvir's knowledge. On the other hand, if we interpret this last statement to mean that Androg lived a for a significant length of time after the battle, and presumably had communication with Andvir during that time, then it is quite relevant.

Now I'll try to enumerate our possible courses of action:

1. Leave the 'Narn' and the statement in A&D unaltered.
2. Remove the reference to Androg's survival from A&D but keep Andvir and leave the Narn unaltered.
3. Remove the sentence from A&D completely.
4. Alter the Narn so that Androg does not die after the battle.
5. Alter the Narn so that Andvir is a member of the band and he survives the battle.

I have left out solutions that involve leaving Androg's survival or Andvir's presence in the band ambiguous, as I think we all agree those are not practical.

If we accept Findegil's most recent interpretation, then option 1 is the best. Findegil proposes option 2 to be safe. I would note, however, that if A&D post-dates the Narn, we can only justify this if we decide the reference to Androg's survival is an unworkable projected change. Option 3 is the most conservative choice and it sounds to me (though I'm not sure) as though Aran may favour this. Options 4 and 5 can only be considered if we accept that A&D post-dates the Narn. Option 4 requires further that we interpret A&D as asserting that Androg does not die after the battle; it could be accomplished along the lines of Findegil's earlier proposal, by moving the healing by Beleg to after the battle. Conversely, option 5 can only be justified if we interpret A&D as asserting that Andvir, also a member of Turin's band, survives the battle.

As usual, I come to no particular conclusions. I do think, however, that in view of the doubt surrounding the relative dating of the texts, options 4 and 5 are probably too risky.