Rocks, Hard Places, etc....

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It’s come up again! The question of free will! Or: do they have a choice? Or: Gollum's oopsie at the Cracks. Or: it's all prophecy dude! Or: if you break the laws of free will, who will give you a ticket?

Time for a new poll!

EDIT I even gave a cop-out third choice this time, so don't come busting my chops for forcing you to make up your mind!

[davem]

All have freedom of thought but only Men have freedom of action. (Eru excepted, of course).

[Formendacil]

Of course there is free will...

Even if no one else has free will, Men do. Men are clearly granted this by Eru in the Ainulindale, the power to shape their fates amid the workings of the world.

I would say that the Elves have free will as well. Precisely HOW this is supposed to relate to destiny, I have no idea, but to my mind, it appears that the Elves MUST have free will.

As my prime example, I present Feanor. Feanor appears to have chosen, very definitely and angrily, to rebel against the Valar, lead his people to death and exile, and then betray most of them in the process.

Now, one COULD make the argument that Feanor was just doing was he was foresaid to do, but why then is he doomed to remain in Mandos- forever, when all other Elves are let go later? If he is doing what he is "destined", and thus has no free will, then he should not be punished, because he has no control in the matter. Not unlike the insanity plea, I suppose.

So Elves have free will. I have no idea how that works with fate, but that isn't the central issue on this thread.

If both Elves and Men have free will, I would say that it logically follows that all other sentient creatures have free will. The Ainur DID during the Music, and seem to have the same constraints as Elves in Arda. The Dwarves are quite similar to Men- and Eru gave them Free Will, so that they are not bound to Aule's mind.

So yes, Free Will exists. How it works, I am not sure...

[Bêthberry]

It's not free, Fordim. It comes at great cost. Just ask Frodo and Sam.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Good heavens, I'm the token dissenter.

Remember Gandalf's words to Frodo about Bilbo being "meant" to find the Ring, and that it would mean that Frodo is "meant" to have it also?

You can argue that Frodo had the choice any time to get rid of the Ring and I'll agree with you, but it was not in his character to do so. Even though he *could* get rid of the Ring, the Powers that got it to him knew that he wouldn't, which pretty much gets rid of the idea that he might have tossed it away.

Sam had the "free will" to leave Frodo, but his love and promise ensured that he never would.

Eowyn's "free will" got her to the place where the Witch King was during the battle, allowing her to kill him, but there was a prophecy made (my thoughts on prophecies are already sketchy) which was then fulfilled.

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

In a world where prophecies can be made, even if they are self-fullfilled, does that really give anyone free will?

Yes because the person can fail. The prophesy can fail to come about. As you said Sam wouldn't leave Frodo because of his love for him but the point is that he could leave him, as you stated. This of course is free will. Simply because Frodo was meant to receive the ring didn't make it so he had to fulfill the task. He had his agency to turn back at anytime he wanted. And in fact he did at the very end. He exercised his free will to take the ring as his own.

[alatar]

Not sure how this fits into the Tolkien world, but I'll throw this in. Presumably the whole universe is governed by 'laws.' Planets, stars and solar systems just don't run around willy-nilly; their behavior is governed by laws like gravity etc. There were all of those laws that Newton 'passed' that proscribed what an object (whether at rest or in motion) can or cannot do.

Organisms on this big ball of rock on which we live are also governed by laws. One might say that it's all in the genes, and that when you make a choice, well, you are acting not as a free agent but as a product of what is encoded in your DNA in response to something in your immediate environment.

I like reading, especially Tolkien. My biological father and eldest brother are also avid readers (yet not Tolkien fans), and as I was not raised by said parent...it could be genetic. I was exposed to Tolkien via the school library whereas my father and brother weren't (or most likely they too would have read Tolkien).

Then there are other laws that govern one's behavior. Surely you felt the urge now and again to scream, "PJ is God!" while swinging a homemade replica of Gandalf's staff around in the air in a crowded movie theater while watching LOTR, but there are social mores and also legal issues to consider that (hopefully) governed and possibly restrained your behavior.

I think that Isaac Asimov wrote in the Foundation trilogy scifi novels that societies' actions could be predicted and therefore were deterministic. All that you needed were large enough numbers and you could use math/statistics to determine what people (not individuals) would do. My guess is that once you gather some priors on persons, you then could determine what 'choice' they would make. Isn't this what marketing firms do when they gather information?

At the quantum level, however, the universe isn't deterministic but probabilistic, meaning that you can't know exactly what will occur but can make some really good guesses.

So, whether it's Newtonian physical laws, my genes, my environment or simply the most probable action, I just had to post.

Anyway, assuming the Middle Earth world is similar to what I have above, then I would say that chances are if Frodo had not taken the Ring, then maybe we would have seen "Fatty Lives" spray-painted in American subways. Maybe if Eowyn would have been lost in the initial charge of the Rohirrim, we might have had a site praising Ioreth or her sister. If Frodo or Eowyn would have fallen, then either someone would have jumped into their places or we would not have had the chance to read LOTR as Sauron would control all printing presses and so we'd be stuck reading Robert Jordan of "Wheel of Time"...ahhh...fame.

Eru was merciful.

[Turgon Philip Noldor]

Yes, I believe there was free will, but some wills were not strong enough to fight opposing wills. So when Boramir tried to take the ring from Frodo, the resson might have been because his will was not strong enought to fight the will of the Ring.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

To answer that, I would like to emphasise the "free" part of free will: freedom implies a lack of constraints, or -- put another way -- an infinitude of possibility. One's will is unfettered by all considerations other than what the will desires.

I disagree. Free will is not unfettered in our world and so it can never be unfettered in any fantasy world which approximates to our own. "Free" within this context, therefore, cannot be construed as impying a total lack of constraints.

We necessarily have limited free will because we cannot do whatever we desire. I could not simpy walk through the Alps, even though I might desire to do so. I would have to walk either round or over them (and even then I would not have unlimited free will to do so as I liked). In both our world and in Middle-earth there can be no such thing as unlimited free will, and so the phrase "free will" must necessarily imply a degree of restriction.

Of course, Middle-earth is not our own world, and so free will within it is of a different nature. In many respects it is more restricted, as a consequence of matters such as the existence of Eru's plan, the immortality of the Elves and the various Dooms that are pronounced. But, limited though it may be, free will still exists.

And I would argue that the existence of free will does not preclude the operation of fate. If someone is fated to do or experience something, that does not prevent them exercising their free will in matters which do not impact upon that fated outcome. Even with regard to matters which do impact on it, they still have (limited) free will to choose the path which gets them there. Turin, for example, had freedom of action in many respects, but could not avoid the Doom which Morgoth had pronounced. His free will was limited by his fate. But he nevertheless had (limited) free will.

So I will vote for both.

[Thinlómien]

One clear example of free will can be found in FotR chapter 10. (Sorry I can't quote this, but I don't have LotR in english). Frodo is in Amon Hen and the two forces, the Eye and the Voice fight inside his mind. The Eye orders him to come to it and the Voice orders him to take the ring off. (I tried to translate the following sentence): "Suddenly he became aware of himself again. Frodo - not the Voice nor the Eye - was free to choose and there was only a little moment of time. He took the Ring off his finger."
That's clearly free will, isn't it?

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I voted "yes and no". I don't have any real text evidence to support this...and it's mostly influenced by my own worldview.

I think that without some degree of free will, our actions lose their meaning, and that goes for LOTR, too. If everyone in the story was acting *completely* according to destiny or fate, a lot of the amazing moments lose their power. For instance, Frodo's choice to take the Ring. It's a much more amazing thing to consider if you believe that he was acting of his own free will in making that choice: He could have said no and gone home, but instead he took the Ring and endured all kinds of pain and suffering as a result.

However, some things must have been meant to happen. Aragorn fights an inner battle about his heritage and birthright, but in the end, he takes the position as king and leader. This, I think, was fate. He would, one way or another, eventually become King, even if he had made a totally different string of choices.

[Morsul the Dark]

Here's how I look at it yes you have freedom of choice, but..... Have you ever done something even though you didn't want to and it came out right in the end?

What I'm saying is free will is an illusion there is no such thing we think there is but there isnt

edit:thats why i put probably both

I don't think there is free will but maybe im MADE to believe there is no free will