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#1 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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In HoME 7, The Treason of Isengard, Christopher Tolkien redraws his father's original working map of The Lord of the Rings. He goes over the different parts of it in great detail, excluding only the empty stretches east of Mordor and the Sea of Rhun.
The recent book Tolkien: Maker of Middle-earth features an actual scan of the First Map (item 179), and those eastern regions? They're not so empty after all. ![]() Full-size version Closeup of 'B' (taken from the inside front cover) There are a range of notes written in the empty reaches of Rhun, along with some faint (at least in this version of the image) drawings. I've highlighted what I can make out. (To be clear: this is a completely different map to the annotated Pauline Baynes map, despite the similar style of notes.) Of immediate note is C, which is quite clearly an eastern mountain range with a region of higher peaks at the southern end. If you've been following the discussion of the Amazon TV series, you'll know that mountains in that location are quite controversial - well, apparently they're a Tolkien original! They come with what may be a label (D), but it's utterly illegible to me. Speaking of labels... B is pretty clearly a name for the forest on the north-east corner of the Sea of Rhun, and unlike the rest of these, there's a closeup available (they used the map from the Shire to the Sea of Rhun as the inside cover for the book). It... kind of looks like it says 'Neldoreth'? That would fit with Tolkien's habit of pilfering names from the Silm, but I'm not over-confident in my reading. (Paired with Dorwinion, though, it says interesting things about the region.) E marks a line that starts north of the mountains C, curves west towards Mordor, then swings back to hit the outer ring around G. Is it a crossing-out? A river, drawn very faintly? A dividing line? I don't know. G is fascinating, because it looks for all the world like a tiny circular map. Those wiggles say 'coastline' to me, but it's definitely not Middle-earth or Beleriand. Any thoughts? All the other items are notes of varying legibility, some of them crossed out. They may not even relate to the eastern regions - but even if not, they're Tolkien's own notes, and weren't covered in HoME. I can't read them - can anyone here? hS |
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#2 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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It would be to sad if this threrad would go into oblivion without any answer!
So I will start with C, and hope that other may join. I have worked a bit with this Map and its eastern ‘extention’ in comparision to Map V of the [b]Ambrakanta[/i] in HoME 4. The issue with that comparision is that we have no scale on Map V and that we have only one common feature (the Great Gulf becoming the later Bay of Belfalas). And that feature is changed so much (proberbly over time) as not useable for scaling. So we have to get some additional ‘helper’. That ‘helper’ is the Second Silmarillion Map from HoME 5. This Map has a scale and can thus easily be fited to the First Lord of the Rings Map and provides all the features of Beleriand that are on Ambrakanta Map V. Trying to compare these Maps we find different things: - Beleriand is some how distorted on Ambrakanta Map V. - Beleriand is depicted to large on Ambrakanta Map V, since if we scale to match Beleriand the Great Gulf will in no way fit the Later Bay of Belfalas and the Red Moutians from Ambrakanta Map V would rather fall to gether with the Iron Moutians of the First Lord of the Rings Map . - However if we look for a compromise in scaling that would alow for parts of Beleriand and the Great Gulf / Bay of Belfalas to fit, the Mountian Range on the eastern part of the First Lord of the Rings Map will at least be near to the Red Mountains on Ambrakanta Map V. So the evidence we take out of that comparision sayes yes, the range east on the First Lord of the Rings Map are identical with the Orocarni. But of course that is no garantee that these Mountian Range on the eastern part of the First Lord of the Rings Map are the Thrid Age remains of the Orocarni! Ambrakanta Map V was drawn when there was no Lord of the Rings. How the invention of the Second and Third Age changed Tolkien’s Vision of Arda from that depicted in Ambrakanta Map V we can not know for sure. Respectfully Findegil |
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#3 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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Findegil: neat! I had a play with Ambarkanta V and the finished LotR map at one point, but didn't think of carrying through to this one and the Silmarillion map. (I wound up with the Orocarni wandering anywhere from the Misty Mountains to the Sea of Rhun, so my results approximately agree with yours.)
Comparing Ambarkanta IV and V to the later maps, it's pretty clear that Tolkien straight-up added the Misty Mountains to his worldview at some point. It would make sense for this to be when he decided The Hobbit was part of the Legendarium; he would then have added in the references to the Silm, and gotten the whole map pretty much how we know it. The Misty Mountains are already closer to the Blue mountains than to these mystery eastern mountains. It doesn't seem implausible for the main continent of Middle-earth to actually end pretty close to the eastern edge of the map - with just another Beleriand-sized region to go. Intriguingly, this would make the Sea of Nurn the last vestiges of the Inland Sea of Helkar - and put Cuivienen somewhere in southern Mordor. I... have no idea whether Tolkien would have done that? hS |
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#4 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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You know, it's just possible to make a case that in the very earliest stages of writing The Hobbit, or at least making the original version of the Wilderland Map,Tolkien had Beleriand in mind. The Misty Mountains were the Ered Wethrin (lit. "Mountains of Mist"), the Great River was Sirion (lit. "THE River"), and Mirkwood was Taur-nu-Fuin (lit. "Forest of Dark Shadow"), complete with Sauron holing up there- and Tolkien even recycled the painting of Turin and Gwindor there and titled it Mirkwood! The Withered Heath would correspond with Anfauglith (which was literally "withered" from Ard-galen, thanks to dragonfire). The "Edge of the Wild" meant leaving the relative safety of Hithlum behind.
And there's I think just a hint of an intermediate stage where the Misty Mountains were the Blue Mountains, and crossing them meant leaving Beleriand for Terra Incognita. Of course, that idea disappeared very, very early since already by the troll chapter Gandalf says Gondolin was sacked "many ages ago." But the more likely explanation is simply that Tolkien was just recycling bits and pieces of Silmarillion ideas without any conscious intent that Mr Baggins existed in the same universe, any more than Farmer Giles or Mr. Bliss did: Thranduil's halls recall Menegroth, but in pictures were copied from Nargothrond; the Gwindor/Mirkwood painting was just economical repurposing, (it was recycled yet again as Fangorn); Smaug on his underground hoard reflects Glaurung in Nargothrond (itself echoing Beowulf and the Volsung legend); the Great Eagles and Elrond were straight-up lifts.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 03-19-2019 at 10:59 AM. |
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#5 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch
Posts: 219
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There is of course also this reference in one of the original drafts:
Quote:
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Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. |
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#6 | ||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Posted by Huinesoron:
Quote:
Posted by Huinesoron: Quote:
And yes, Middle-earth (which by the way is the main continent of Arda) becomes pretty much small when taking Ambrakanta Map IV and Map V serious. Posted by Huinesoron: Quote:
On Map IV Cuivienen was at the in Map V narrow strip of land between the Inland Sea and the Red Mountians, so it has to be east of the later place of Mordor. But on the LotR Map all hints of the souther part of the Red Mountains are gone. We have to assume that they were removed. Some farther intriguing thoughs. If we would accept that this Eastern Range is identical to the Orocarni this would have some interesting effects: - During the Second Age the Eastern Sea would not be fare behind the Orocarni (this could be changed drastically with Arda made round at the end of the Second Age). But the Dominion over the East that Sauron held in the Second Age looks a bit smaller in this context then I would have expected. - Considering the places where the fathers of the dwarves awoke, the Orocarni are for sure the most eastern place (Blacklocks and Stonefoots). But that means, that we have the place were the Ironfists and the Stiffbeards awoke inbetween Gundabad and the Orocarni. Looking to the First Lord of the Rings Map, the only place that seems fiting are the Iron Moutians. And indeed we can find a vaint supporting evidence for this: LotR, Appendix A III: Dúrin’s Folk: Quote:
Quote:
And considering that Tolkien always used speaking names, doesn’t it fit to have the Ironfists in the Iron Hills and the Stiffbeards to be balmed by Thráin to dwell behind ‘proud doors’? - And then we have this Note from HoME 12, Of Dwarves and Men: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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