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#1 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Notes on Motives in the Simarillion
This thread will give the text of parts of the Myths Transformed section of HoME X, dealing with the enemies. The First draft was done by ArcusCalion. But I added MT VI and changed some small points.
Our basis text is that of MT VII B: Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion given in HoME X. In cooperated are, parts of MT VII A and MT VI. The markings are: NoM-XX for tracking any changes to text basis text. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text changed for grammatical reasons ...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source and not given here to reduce the amount of text. As always here the chapter is given striped of most of the text just to document the changes we did. Following the text will be a short reasoning for each of these changes. Quote:
NoM-00.2, NoM-00.3: With this two changes LQ I tried to bring the text into accord with the story line proposed by Aiwendil in the chapter The Coming of the Elves. NoM-00.4: As we have Melkor now chained with Angainor, Tulkas can not bear it behind. But I think it is reasonable that he would guard Melkor going behind him and holding probably the end of the chain to prevent him from any try to sneak away. NoM-00.5: Since Melkor was already defeated by Tulkas and is chained with Angainor we have to change the text here accordingly. NoM-00.6: In our version he can not avoid being chained since he is so already. NoM-00.7: This passage was moved to make the first meeting of Manwë and Melkor take place during the council. NoM-00.8: I made the minimal necessary change here, but I am in doubt if we should not skip the entire paragraph. From here on the changes were first proposed by ArcusCalion, but he did not provide a reasoning for them. As far as possible I will give these as I see them. When my editing is different from ArcusCalions first proposal I marked that with an additional b in the marker and will give his original proposal here in the notes. Additional editings, proposed by me, are given a marker like NoM-XX.X. NoM-01 - NoM-03: I am not sure if the use of ‘God’ is because Tolkien as author speaks about his creation or because the text is so early that the use of ‘God’ was more common. But either way, I agree with ArcusCalion that we have to change it here. NoM-04b: ArcusCalion proposed only to change ‘the God fearing’ => ‘those faithful to Eru’ but I think that Ar-Pharazôn might be called fearing Eru but for sure not faithful to him. NoM-04.5: We just a few paragraphs above discussed the last instance of Manwë leaving Valinor during the War of the Powers, therefore I introduce that change. NoM-05: The references to the Whitehall, King Arthur and Camelot or Caerleon have to go. NoM-06b: ArcusCalion proposed to replace ‘ultimate ‘Ragnarok’ by ‘ultimate battle’, which is reasonable. But from UT, Istari we have the elvish name of the Middle-earth equivalent of ‘Ragnarok’, which I propose a ‘precise’ replacement here. NoM-07 & NoM-10: Here we have Tolkien speaking about his own literary technique. We clearly have to remove these sentences. But just for the record: I do not fully agree to Tolkien in the first instance: Manwë is not Eru. Thus he could be dethroned before the final End with out the themes of Eru failing completely. Eru during the Music of the Ainur twice counter acted Melkors discord: in the First instance we are told that Manwë was the main instrument of Eru’s new theme, but in the second that were the Children of Eru. For that reason as soon as Elves and Men have entered the history of Arda Manwë’s supreme tasked had been accomplished and he would have been abdicable in the sense meant here by Tolkien. Anyhow we see Manwë ‘endangering’ himself during the War of the Powers, where we might assume we are still in Eru’s first new theme or right at the beginning of the second, so that Manwë as preserver of Arda as habitation for the Children of Eru’s is still clearly very much needed. While he stayed bake at Valinor during the War of Wrath, which must be right inside the second new theme of Eru, when we might rule that he is abdicable. And in the end we might view him as being dethroned, when Valinor is removed from the circle of Arda after the rebellion of the Númenóreans. NoM-08: I think this is a regular change, but ArcusCalion gave it a marker, so that marker will stay for reference. NoM-09: ‘we move out’ has to be changed for sure, but I am unsure if a change to ‘moves out’ wouldn’t be sufficient. We have form LT some ideas about Dagor Dagorath and there some fights are fought on the very plains of Valinor. In accordance with that(?) UT, Istari uses the phrase ‘descend from the Mountain’. But that has of course the problem that Manwë is constantly seen at Councils of the Valar which are held in the plain of Valinor. So ‘moves out’ would not only be nearer to the original text but also less specific. NoM-11 & NoM-12: I don’t know ArcusCalions reason behind this change. I thought that hröa is still a valid word for a body, and thus usable here figuratively. NoM-13: We have to discuss if this sentence was left out by propose or by accident. In the first case we should not add it back in. NoM-14 & NoM-15b: In this cases ‘mythology has to go. In the second instance ArcusCalion proposed ‘’mythology’’ => ‘histories’. Most probably he made that difference because of the quotation marks. But honestly, I do not see why we shouldn’t use the same replacement in both cases. To mark a difference, we could use still the quotation marks. At least ‘histories’ sounds out of place, so if a sharp differentiation is wanted than ‘tales’ would be a better replacement in one of the cases. NoM-16: ArcusCalion proposed to skip this last passage, and I think his reason was the incompleteness. It is as well not any good as transition to the reminder of MT VII A which has to follow here. NoM-17: Again I don’t know where ‘Hastaina’ comes from. But I must admit that I was to lacy to look that up. ArcusCalion, can you explain that change out of mind or do we have to re-search it? As always, please feel free to disagree with me. First drafts have ever benefited from input of other members. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 08-18-2021 at 10:22 AM. |
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#2 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Fin all of your points I agree to. You were correct in guessing my reasoning for most if not all of these. I will explain my elvish changes below.
NoM-11 & NoM-12: This change was based on a very late change to the text of Laws and Customs of the Eldar regarding the word for the 'matter' of Arda. Originally Tolkien referred to the 'matter of Arda as hrón (sometimes rhón) which he then changed to hrondo and finally hröa as the word for 'physical flesh, matter'. However, he then went back and changed hrón to mean 'matter, physical substance' as opposed to hröa meaning 'body, flesh.' This finally was changed in the margins to orma which was elsewhere written as erma (I believe in Osanwe-Kenta which was written after the base text of Laws and Customs). This is the (long and convoluted) reasoning behind the change. NoM-17: This change was made based on the dating of the references. I believe Hastaina was written in (i believe) Laws and Customs as a later note. I will have to double-check when I am home and have access to my texts, but I know this was an attempt on my part to standardize it. As far as I know both are valid late-term Quenya, with hasta- meaning 'to mar' and sak- meaning 'to hurt.' However, the word sak- seems to conflict with the word sac- meaning 'to close'. Both would be written sac- in Third Age Quenya, so to avoid the linguistic uncertainty, and also based on the later change in the other document, I went with Hastaina. Hopefully this reasoning makes sense. As I said, many of the works in Volume 3 get very technical in terms of the Elvish linguistic development. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 08-20-2021 at 08:03 AM. |
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#3 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Okay I had to change my mind about the story line as explained in the Thread The Coming of the Elves. Here is what is to be changed from the version given above:
Quote:
NoM-00.3b & NoM-00.7b: Here a passage from below was inserted, this move now is no longer necessary. NoM-00.65: A concession to let the story line of AAm/LQ work: How could Manwë be said to grant the prayer if Melkor is still dragged away bound by Angainor? NoM-00.4b: The change remains the same just the placement is changed therefore the additional b in the marker. Respectfully, Findegil |
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#4 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Looks good Fin!
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