Celebrian's Misfortunes

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Lately, there's been heated discussions regarding Celebrian's ordeal in other Tokien-related forums. There's been great speculation that Celebrian suffered more than Tolkien metaphorically intended her to. Some say that she was indeed, raped by the orcs. What do you guys think about that?

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Lately, there's been heated discussions regarding Celebrian's ordeal in other Tokien-related forums. There's been great speculation that Celebrian suffered more than Tolkien metaphorically intended her to. Some say that she was indeed, raped by the orcs. What do you guys think about that?

I doubt it.

[Boromir88]

I agree with Neurion.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

It isn't entirely impossible that such a torture did occur for Celebrian. Tolkien deosn't really address clearly when something sexual-related is open to interpretation.

[Boromir88]

Why must people try to look for sexual intentions in Tolkien's books? What I mean is, "Are Frodo and Sam gay?" "Did Arwen and Aragorn do it before the Council of Elrond?" "Oooh, did you see how Galadriel looked at Bilbo when they were parting for Valinor, do you think there was something between them? Or maybe Frodo?"

It's like since there is no mention of sexual activity people must go and force in possible instances when there is really nothing there.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Why must people try to look for sexual intentions in Tolkien's books? What I mean is, "Are Frodo and Sam gay?" "Did Arwen and Aragorn do it before the Council of Elrond?" "Oooh, did you see how Galadriel looked at Bilbo when they were parting for Valinor, do you think there was something between them? Or maybe Frodo?"

It's like since there is no mention of sexual activity people must go and force in possible instances when there is really nothing there.

Boromir, I highly doubt that my question on Celebrian's ordeal is of the same nature that you find offensive in those other ridiculous questions you stated.

Wowie, interesting topic here! But as for me, I must personally say that I do not think that Celebrian was raped. For several reasons actually. Tolkien mentioned in his writings that an elf who was raped would immediately leave their bodies and go to the Halls of Mandos...and quite frankly, seeing as Celebrian stuck around after she was captured for another year, I don't think that that is a clear indication that something like that happened to her. And besides that, what is all this talk I am seeing about everyone thinking that a morgul-poisoning wound is not severe enough to make an elf lose delight in Middle Earth?! Did you see what happened to FRODO?! I mean, this poison that the Orcs used on Celebrian is some of the darkest in Middle Earth. From what was portrayed, we can see that it hurts you physically, mentally, and spiritually. Frodo was almost turned into a WRAITH for pity's sake! Besides the fact that usually whenever Tolkien talks about what happened to Celebrian, he usually sticks the little point of the morgul poisoning in there among everything else, so to me, it really looks like he is hinting toward the fact that THAT was the reason why she left. Besides, think of the scars left on her body after all of that! Her face was probably mangled from the burns and cuts and everything that the Orcs used to hurt her while she was captivity, and her whole body just probably had these lasting marks on them that even Elrond couldn't banish. After all, he can heal her, but things like scars are just marks. There weren't any fancy band-aids or powders back then to make scars fade away, like there might be today. And even besides that, just the simple fact of the memories and nightmares that she has to live with after all of that... no matter who her mother was, Celebrian is still female, and an elf at that. And why is being an elf an important thing here? Because elves were spoken of to being very tender-hearted, as they can die from a broken heart.

And upon the detail that she might have been able to survive a little longer because she was raped by an ORC and not an ELF...come on. Do you REALLY think it would be any easier on her to be raped by an Orc? Rape is rape. The deed can be done the same way by an Orc as with an elf. So if Celebrian was really raped by an Orc, she would still die. Her body and spirit has still been defiled, no matter who or what it was defiled by.

And I see that we've been kind of playing around with the supposed "gap" that Tolkien left for us by using the word "torment" instead of the word "torture". So... upon seeing this I decided to look up the word in an online dictionary, and guess what the outcome was...

Dictionary 1 Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin tormentum torture; akin to torquEre to twist -- more at TORTURE
1 : the infliction of torture (as by rack or wheel)
2 : extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : AGONY
3 : a source of vexation or pain

Dictionary 2 • noun 1 severe physical or mental suffering.

Dictionary 3
tor·ment [ tawr mént ]

1. inflict pain on somebody or something: to inflict torture, pain, or anguish on somebody or something

And the other definations that came along with that all had to do with "teasing", so I decided not to stick that in there...but really. Does that really sound like Tolkien was majorly hinting toward something more serious than your average torture? I don't think so. The word "torment" CAME from the word "torture", and it basically means the same thing. And it is mainly phyiscal stuff, like being poked, and burned, and scratched, etc. Now if he had said the word "assault", then maybe we'd be opened up to a bit more. But it really sounds like he's talking about torture there. And I tend to agree with that, since Orcs, from what I can tell from their personalities and the way they are described, seem to be the sort that would find more pleasure in the torture instead of some kind of sexual assault. Orcs, to me, really seem (from the point of their naturally descructive nature) like the types who would enjoy more of the wounds that they can see and hear, like blood, screams, ugly wounds, burns, deep cuts, etc. They don't seem like they would go lusting over beautiful women, since they despise elves and "ALL THINGS BEAUTIFUL". So why would they have this big sex-desire thing going on?

And many ask why the Orcs would have kept Celebrian instead of killing her right off, if not to take advantage of her beauty and the fact that she is female? Well, there are actually several reasons. 1) She is a lady of importance. High rank, high respect. The game is always more fun when you are dealing with someone valuable who is supposedly not easily broken. 2) She is an elf! Tolkien mentioned that Orcs have a special hatred for the eldar and their beauty, (which is another reason why I don't think they kept the beautiful and fair Celebrian to rape her) so why not take advantage of one of high rank to torture and have a little fun with?

And another thought on the subject that Tolkien may have been secretly "leaving a gap" for us to guess with in his using of the word "torment"...let's just be careful at how we put this stuff now. The LAST thing we want to do is take this genius' work and turn it into something it is NOT. For example (to use something written before this), someone says "well...it kind of SOUNDS like it sometimes...so I'm betting that Frodo and Sam are gay!". YIKES!! Can you even IMAGINE the look on Tolkien's face if he saw that?! I know I be VERY mad at anyone who did something like that to my finest work. And I know, to each his own opinion. But as I said, let's just be careful here. Heaven knows there are ways to torture someone that can be seen as bad as rape or worse! Humans these days over in other countries and in captivity go MAD from torture!

So yes, as "Celebrian" said, to assume rape in Tolkien's writings is still very spectulative. Let's just watch what we say about the dear old professor, and just leave his words as thety are. I know, I know, to each his own opinion...and I have just given you mine. *blushes* I hope I haven't offended anyone, but after a bit of research, well, you can see why I may differ in my opinions from a few people on this thread.

~Adel

P.S. I do agree with Lalaith. Elladan and Elrohir weren't necessary so horrified and angry at their mother's capture because she was raped. Think of what YOU would do if you walked into an Orcish torture den and saw someone using hot metals and rusty blades to ravage YOUR mother! I'd never see my brothers again...

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Adel

Wowie, interesting topic here! But as for me, I must personally say that I do not think that Celebrian was raped. For several reasons actually. Tolkien mentioned in his writings that an elf who was raped would immediately leave their bodies and go to the Halls of Mandos...and quite frankly, seeing as Celebrian stuck around after she was captured for another year, I don't think that that is a clear indication that something like that happened to her . . . And upon the detail that she might have been able to survive a little longer because she was raped by an ORC and not an ELF...come on. Do you REALLY think it would be any easier on her to be raped by an Orc? Rape is rape. The deed can be done the same way by an Orc as with an elf. So if Celebrian was really raped by an Orc, she would still die. Her body and spirit has still been defiled, no matter who or what it was defiled by.

Not necessarily. Notice the exact wording:

"Among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible…for the Eldar can read at once in the eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed." (JRRT, Morgoth's Ring, Laws & Customs of the Eldar, footnote 5)

This quote directly relates to inter-Elvish relationships. Period. And, while you say that it is the act that is important, not the person committing it (or, in this case, the species of that person), I am forced to disagree. The identity of the criminal can make a big difference -- think of being raped by a complete stranger, versus a good and trusted friend! The former would be horrible; the latter could leave emotional scars that affect, not only your ability to function as a human being in society, but also your ability to trust!

Perhaps the species of the rapist would affect an Elf in that violent crimes (I agree, rape in this case has absolutely nothing to do with lust and sex, and everything to do with inflicting pain) are expected by Orcs. In Tolkien's (mostly) black-and-white world, Orcs are evil monsters that will do anything they can to inflict horrible pain on others, especially their most hated nemesis, the Eldar. For a fellow Elf to do the same is an even worse betrayal -- Elves aren't supposed to be capable of such.

Originally Posted by Adel

Orcs, to me, really seem (from the point of their naturally descructive nature) like the types who would enjoy more of the wounds that they can see and hear, like blood, screams, ugly wounds, burns, deep cuts, etc. They don't seem like they would go lusting over beautiful women, since they despise elves and "ALL THINGS BEAUTIFUL". So why would they have this big sex-desire thing going on?

Being female myself, I know that I would certaily make all kinds of "satisfying" sounds in a similar situation. And what better way to inflict "wounds" on this beautiful, pure Elvish lady than defiling her, forcing on her deep emotional wounds that make her feel that her own body is a thing dirty and defiled (as rape victims often do)?

Originally Posted by Adel

And I see that we've been kind of playing around with the supposed "gap" that Tolkien left for us by using the word "torment" instead of the word "torture". So... upon seeing this I decided to look up the word in an online dictionary, and guess what the outcome was . . .The word "torment" CAME from the word "torture", and it basically means the same thing. And it is mainly phyiscal stuff, like being poked, and burned, and scratched, etc. Now if he had said the word "assault", then maybe we'd be opened up to a bit more. But it really sounds like he's talking about torture there.

. . .

P.S. I do agree with Lalaith. Elladan and Elrohir weren't necessary so horrified and angry at their mother's capture because she was raped. Think of what YOU would do if you walked into an Orcish torture den and saw someone using hot metals and rusty blades to ravage YOUR mother! I'd never see my brothers again...

I agree with you here, on both parts. The exact wording is irrelivant, as "torment" and "torture" are synonymous. And, whatever the twins saw in that Orc den was horrible enough, no matter the details.

Sorry if I've ranted and raved, and picked apart your post! I just found it so interesting, and had to comment on certain parts of it, that I found especially important.

Oh, no problem about the picking apart there Nukapei! Everyone does it once in a while I think. And you have some valuable points, such as your point on Tolkien not being particularly direct in saying that any cases of rape would cause an elf to leave their bodies...but personally, I don't think that it makes any difference. Rape is rape is rape. It is the same defiling, the same humiliation, and though it may not be by a friend or family, the deed is still the deed. It still happened, it still does the same stuff. That is just what I believe...doesn't really mean it's correct, but that is just my opinion. I don't think it'd be any easier for Celebrian to pull through that, personally...

Nukapei: Being female myself, I know that I would certaily make all kinds of "satisfying" sounds in a similar situation. And what better way to inflict "wounds" on this beautiful, pure Elvish lady than defiling her, forcing on her deep emotional wounds that make her feel that her own body is a thing dirty and defiled (as rape victims often do)?

Because there are other ways of doing things just as bad or worse that would involve much more pleasure for the Orcs. Personally, I don't really think that an Orc would go to that kind of thing, since, as I said, I don't really imagine them having any lust or sex desires. They were never portrayed that way, seeing as they hate all things beautiful and fair, and especially the eldar. I mean, the morgul poisoning would be bad enough through and through. As I stated before, it bothers me how people are always downplaying the roll of the morgul poisoning! Why must we think that something else like RAPE had to happen in order for Celebrian to lose all delight in Middle Earth? Morgul poisoning is AWFUL! Again, look at Frodo! Sorry if I'm getting a little freaky here, I don't mean to be, but it really is something I don't understand. Poisons, gruesome mental images, crude words in the BLACK SPEECH (remember the Elves' reaction to that in the chapter "The Council of Elrond" in FOTR! They were NOT enjoying that!), extreme pain, despair, panic, fear, scars...I mean, you name it she felt it! Daughter of Galadriel or not, that would certainly be enough to get her over to Valinor in my opinion.

Suggestions for toture that Orcs very likely would use: (just for fun mind you. Mwahaha! This is good for all people who are stuck on ways to have their Orcs torture elven prisoners in all fanfiction...)

1. Poison. Absolutely. Probably some of the vilest out there. Poisons that infect your mind, your body, your spirit, your very being itself. Especially when the poisons are from Angmar, or even Mordor! All that black magic just kills you. Remember, Orcs are so good at cooking up stuff that hurts you that even their MEDICINES are painful to take! (and no, I don't mean your daily dose of chest congestion medicine or cough syrup. I mean physical PAIN) Poisons that can sometimes triple the pain that you would normally feel for a poke (working the nerves of the body), poisons that go to your mind and nearly drive you mad with just mental distortion there, poisons that turn your blood black or something to make it burn...I mean, come on. They could've done ANYTHING with the supplies they had!

2. Burns. Oh yeah, bring em' on! You heat up a hot poker, a sword blade, anything that'll heat up really hot and press it against that fair elven skin? Very good, very good. Screams, the smells of burning flesh, severe scars, wounds that take WEEKS to heal...

3. Black speech. Not really a major torture thing here, but that speech is so detestable and dark that elves have a very hard time standing it. It's nearly the opposite of what they speak, and there is no telling what the Orcs are actually saying in the process...

4. Bleeding. Whips, knives, chains, pinchers...anything that'll make the blood come! Orcs love blood, and they know how to draw it from you in the most painful ways with whatever they've got, so be prepared to lose a little of that red stuff if you're ever captured...

5. Physical distortion. Cutting off the tips of the ears, cutting the hair, the fingers, slicing up the face, cutting out the tongue, gouging out the eyes...I don't think I need to go on. But who said that Celebrian didn't come back to Imladris with an eye or a tongue missing? Eeeeek, creepy thought...

6. Hand you over to the Ring Wraiths. Probably the last time they'd see you in recognizable form, but it'd probably be the worst of the worst. After all, between Black Breath and some of the other awful stuff that those Nazgul have...well, I needn't say anymore. This is a drastic step, and they PROBABLY wouldn't normally take it, so go ahead and ignore this one.

All right, I'll stop babbling now. *looks around* Anyone made a run for the chuck-bucket yet? *cringes* I know it's awful. But those are Orcs, ya know...*points finger at Tolkien quickly* His fault! Thanks for your comments Nukapei! Again, I sure hope I haven't offended anyone, and remember, to each his own opinion! Some people may think that it is likely that Celebrian was raped, and others think not. Either way Tolkien never said, so no one can be positive or put their fingers down on anything. It's all a matter of perspective and opinion. Just like some people think that Frodo and Sam were most definately gay. I don't. Simple as that, so I'll stick to my opinion, and those people will stick to theirs. There is plenty of room in this world for both views.

This is Adel, signing out. *tips hat over eyes*

[Nukapei]

Good points, Adel. Yeah, I had forgotten about exactly how bad Morgul poison was. Not nice stuff, that. And I had forgotten about physical distortion, although I shouldn't have -- my fave pic of the silver lady is [this one]. But the Imladris twins show up to find their mother, burn marks all over the place, maybe blind in one eye, head shaved, points cut off her ears, etc. and that'd be enough! Morgul poison aside . . .

Oh, and thanks for tearing mine apart!

[Lush]

So why would they have this big sex-desire thing going on?

For the third time:

Automatically equating rape with an expression of sexual desire is dangerous. Rape is an act of violence. In times of war, rape is a powerful weapon. Tolkien served in a war, I'm sure he was more than aware of this.

This is not an argument for or against the theory of why exactly Celebrain left Middle Earth. This is a reminder that the definition of rape should not be skewed for the sake of argument.