why do elves need to go to the undying lands? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

09-05-2005, 08:45 PM

Elves are supposed to be immortal so why do they need to leave middle earth and and go to the undying lands.Throughout the movies elrond talks about his daughters death. Can someone please fill me in on what is going on here?!

09-06-2005, 05:37 AM

The Elves don't need to go to the Undying Lands. If they wish (which they seldom seem to do) they may stay in Middle-Earth until Dagor Dagorath [Doomsday]. On the other hand there isn't much left for an elf who stays behind. Your life would just be lurching in the shadows in an everchanging world. Now that wouldn't be too good for your mental health

Elves also felt a yearning to leave for a better place, and that place was of course the Undying Lands.
The death of an elf is also a bit exceptional since they first go to Halls of Mandos and after that they might get a new body. They are chained to this world so to speak. Men on the other hand die and go where nobody knows (except Erú).

Now Elrond and his children are an exception, because Elrond is half-elven and that gives him and his children a choice. They may choose an immortal life and leave for the Undying Lands if they wish, or they can stay behind and die as humans. I think there are threads here that discuss this choice more on deepth, so I won't go into that. I'll just say that Elrond chose the life of an elf and thus he also got a yearning to sail West. Arwen on the contrary chose the mortal life (because she married Aragorn etc.). Now imagine being a father who's only daughter is going to die (and stay dead until the new theme of Erú) while you yourself will live on in this world for almost all eternety. I think that's reason enough to talk a whole 9 hours about your daughters death.

This was of course a very short presentation of the whole matter. I'd recommend to do a search on topics about the subject if you wish to know more. I bet there are a lot of long debates around some of the subjects I took up here.

Boromir88 · 09-06-2005, 06:26 AM

Eyrie, I think you explained it quite well, no need to go into too much detail here.

Yes, elves are immortal, but that only means they can't die of old age or sickness. They can still die from a broken heart (fragile people I say) or in battle. The elves go to the Undying Lands because that marks an ending point to their life. Now, as Eyrie said, not all decide to go there, some decide to stay in Middle-earth when they will just be forgotten and fade away.

It seems you have a misconception about the Undying Lands, that it makes the people who go there immortal. Mortals who go there (Frodo, Bilbo, and eventually Gimli and Sam) will die there eventually. The Undying Lands doesn't make people immortal, the mortals who go there eventually die.

On half-elves, Eyrie explained this well, no need to go into much detail. Elrond kept saying Arwen was going to die because she was a half-elf and was going to choose a mortal life. Half-elves get this choice. Since Arwen chose to marry Aragorn, she revoked her elvish life, and would die shortly after Aragorn's death.

Mithalwen · 09-06-2005, 06:35 AM

Elves are bound to the earth and they do age albeit very slowly. As they age their spirits become dominant over their physical bodies until they become beings of spirit only (this explains in the created mythology why we don't see even a few elves around today..

). This is referred to as the fading of the elves - this process was held back in Rivendell and Lorien by the power of the Elven rings.

Tuor in Gondolin · 09-15-2005, 01:16 PM

I believe the "refusenik" elves (who didn't originally go to Aman) have
to stay on Middle-earth, and will gradually fade, while the remaining Noldor (after The War against Melkor) and the half-elven have a choice of staying and fading
or going to Aman, according to past discussions and some reading by me
in Tolkien's works. Whereas I originally thought all elves had the choice of
the half-elven.

Anguirel · 09-15-2005, 01:20 PM

Tuor-it's more like this-

Half-elves-death on Middle-earth or eternal life in Valinor. No fading.

All Elves, including "refuseniks"-fading on Middle-earth or eternal life in Valinor.

09-05-2005, 08:45 PM	#1
jordainian Guest Posts: n/a	why do elves need to go to the undying lands? Elves are supposed to be immortal so why do they need to leave middle earth and and go to the undying lands.Throughout the movies elrond talks about his daughters death. Can someone please fill me in on what is going on here?!

09-06-2005, 06:26 AM	#3
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,507	Eyrie, I think you explained it quite well, no need to go into too much detail here. Yes, elves are immortal, but that only means they can't die of old age or sickness. They can still die from a broken heart (fragile people I say) or in battle. The elves go to the Undying Lands because that marks an ending point to their life. Now, as Eyrie said, not all decide to go there, some decide to stay in Middle-earth when they will just be forgotten and fade away. It seems you have a misconception about the Undying Lands, that it makes the people who go there immortal. Mortals who go there (Frodo, Bilbo, and eventually Gimli and Sam) will die there eventually. The Undying Lands doesn't make people immortal, the mortals who go there eventually die. On half-elves, Eyrie explained this well, no need to go into much detail. Elrond kept saying Arwen was going to die because she was a half-elf and was going to choose a mortal life. Half-elves get this choice. Since Arwen chose to marry Aragorn, she revoked her elvish life, and would die shortly after Aragorn's death. __________________ Fenris Penguin

09-06-2005, 06:35 AM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,451	Elves are bound to the earth and they do age albeit very slowly. As they age their spirits become dominant over their physical bodies until they become beings of spirit only (this explains in the created mythology why we don't see even a few elves around today.. ). This is referred to as the fading of the elves - this process was held back in Rivendell and Lorien by the power of the Elven rings. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-15-2005, 01:16 PM	#5
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	I believe the "refusenik" elves (who didn't originally go to Aman) have to stay on Middle-earth, and will gradually fade, while the remaining Noldor (after The War against Melkor) and the half-elven have a choice of staying and fading or going to Aman, according to past discussions and some reading by me in Tolkien's works. Whereas I originally thought all elves had the choice of the half-elven. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

09-15-2005, 01:20 PM	#6
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Tuor-it's more like this- Half-elves-death on Middle-earth or eternal life in Valinor. No fading. All Elves, including "refuseniks"-fading on Middle-earth or eternal life in Valinor. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

09-06-2005, 05:37 AM	#2
Eyrie Guest Posts: n/a	The Elves don't need to go to the Undying Lands. If they wish (which they seldom seem to do) they may stay in Middle-Earth until Dagor Dagorath [Doomsday]. On the other hand there isn't much left for an elf who stays behind. Your life would just be lurching in the shadows in an everchanging world. Now that wouldn't be too good for your mental health Elves also felt a yearning to leave for a better place, and that place was of course the Undying Lands. The death of an elf is also a bit exceptional since they first go to Halls of Mandos and after that they might get a new body. They are chained to this world so to speak. Men on the other hand die and go where nobody knows (except Erú). Now Elrond and his children are an exception, because Elrond is half-elven and that gives him and his children a choice. They may choose an immortal life and leave for the Undying Lands if they wish, or they can stay behind and die as humans. I think there are threads here that discuss this choice more on deepth, so I won't go into that. I'll just say that Elrond chose the life of an elf and thus he also got a yearning to sail West. Arwen on the contrary chose the mortal life (because she married Aragorn etc.). Now imagine being a father who's only daughter is going to die (and stay dead until the new theme of Erú) while you yourself will live on in this world for almost all eternety. I think that's reason enough to talk a whole 9 hours about your daughters death. This was of course a very short presentation of the whole matter. I'd recommend to do a search on topics about the subject if you wish to know more. I bet there are a lot of long debates around some of the subjects I took up here.