The Spawning of Orcs

[GandaIf The White]

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I have always thought that Orcs were humans or some kind of other creature that was part human that bread within eachother to make a bigger population, while Sauron made them more evil. But in some of the Movies Pictures I have seen, it shows Saruman 'making' Lurtz just out of thin air with his staff. So is that how orcs are made or do they bread within eachother?

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[The Watcher in the Water]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Spawning of Orcs

From what I have read and understood Orcs are believed to have been created by Morgoth capturing elves and twisting them into a mockery of the fair race.

In terms of increasing their population the word breed always seems to be used which would indicate that procreation occurs. As for the different races of the Orcs - such as the breed Saruman creates - I think that an already existing group of Orcs are twisted/altered by some kind of wizardry possessed by the creator...

Of course I could be wrong! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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[Mithadan]

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Re: The Spawning of Orcs

JRRT had varying conceptions of the origins of orcs throughout his life. He has variously suggested that: (1) orcs were &quot;created&quot; by Melkor in imitation of the Children of Iluvatar; (2) orcs are corrupted elves; (3) orcs are the result of interbreeding between beasts and men or &quot;demons&quot; (Maiar); (4) orcs are corrupted men.

For extensive discussion on this, check out the Silmarillion Canon forum. There are two lengthy threads on this issue, one named Orcish Fear and the other something like the Origins of Orcs. Feel free to reawaken those threads or continue this one and &quot;import&quot; info from the Silm. threads.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Spawning of Orcs

What exactly is meant by the term spawning?
By my reckoning, it could either be a process of breeding by laying eggs, (a rather disturbing notion ), or a very rapid population growth, which would mean that Orcs either have a very short gestation period or produce large and healthy litters.
Is there any reference to female orcs in any of Tolkeins writings?


&quot; the name is writen on his face,I wrote it! I killed him! I am the master!&quot;

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[Theodred21]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Spawning of Orcs

You're right Azog, In all the Tolkien books I've read, I have come across the faintest trace of there being female orcs. Also, I've noticed that orcs never mention their brood. They never talk about themselves having children in any way. There is also no mention about orc children or young orcs either. So I am unsure about how new orcs are created if female or young orcs are ever mentioned.

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[GandaIf The White]

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Re: The Spawning of Orcs

After reading the Sillmarillion, I think that they are corrupted Elves. And there population grows by procreation.

I think the reason why Tolkien never mentioned female or children Orcs because it was not necessary to the story. Im sure Ugluk would be wondering how safe his kids were when he was being chased by the white-skins. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/eyepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Spawning of Orcs

You are of course quite right, breeding must have been through procreation of some kind, hence the breeding of half-orcs.
Or maybe Saruman had a PHd in genetics!!

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[Mithadan]

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Re: The Spawning of Orcs

The Hobbit does mention Orc (or more accurately, goblin) children. Gollum is said to have...errr...eaten a Goblin child not long before he met Bilbo.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[GandaIf The White]

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Re: The Spawning of Orcs

When I first read LOTR I thought that Goblins and Orcs were two different things. Is Goblin a term for Orcs who lived in the Mountains, or was it just a name that JRRT gave them before he made LOTR and decided to change it to Orcs?

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."</p>

[Maglor68]

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Orcs/Goblins

I once gave my theory on this point. As far as anyone can tell, there is no difference between orcs and goblins, other than the difference that my be found, for example, between the Noldor and Teleri.

However, I have an additional theory. Elves and men were created by Eru, and dwarves and ents were created by Aule and Yavanna respectively.

From elves were bred orcs, from ents came trolls and from men came hobbits. What about dwarves? Is it possible that Melkor captured some dwarves early on and bred them into goblins? It would explain several things, including the lesser stature of goblins as well as the mutual hatred between dwarves and goblins.

Anyway, there is absolutely no evidence anywhere in Tolkien's writings that supports this concept. It is just my personal theory.

- maglor

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[Fingolfin]

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Re: The Spawning of Orcs

HoME X:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> (* [footnote to the text] One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his 'creatures', Orcs, Balrogs, etc. power of recuperation and multiplication. So that they will gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power has gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.)<hr></blockquote>

This seems to indicate the the orcs like dwarves were independant creations of a Ainu and so had not pschye to speak of past that of the creator until his power was dispersed. Presumably Aule didn't want to give so much up.

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[Fingolfin]

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RE: Spawning of Orcs

HoME X:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The progeniture of things was corrupted. Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs, the Eldar believed Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing Men (and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>


BTW how do you edit<hr></blockquote>

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[Mithadan]

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Re: RE: Spawning of Orcs

After your post is made, two links appear to the left, reply and edit. Click on edit and a box will appear with your post. Edit away and click the edit post box below and you're done.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 6/27/01 11:28:08 am

[Eldar14]

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Re: RE: Spawning of Orcs

I think the reason we didn't here about Orc children or birth in the books is that most of that took place in Sauron's palaces and such in Morgoth. And for the orcs that wouldn't have been bred in Morgoth, like say the Misty Mountain Orcs, they might have had their own personal breeding grounds in which the books never went. Also, maybe there were females were in the books, just that they themselves were so twisted and ugly, the characters in the books might have thought them male.

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