Green as a representation of evil

[Joy]

Has anyone noticed the theme in Lit where the color green represents evil?


In LotR, it is used a couple of times (Minas Morgul, Paths of the Dead, and in the Dead Marshes.)

In classic Lit we see this in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight as a repeated theme.

Here is something else (though a later date). Green was the favourite color of Napoleon and the green wallpaper in his exile home in St. Helena became his undoing. His premature death was not the work of a poisoner but was caused by the noxious fumes emanating from the bright green wallpaper.

Discovery of the pigment emerald (Schweinfurt green) in 1800 further worsened the repute of green as the color of poison. Emerald was prepared from verdigris and copper arsenite to result in one of the deadliest poisons ever used in painting.

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So this color paint did emit very toxic fumes.

Often in comic book and cartoons, we see "stink" by green fumes.

Why is this and when did this begin??

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Lastly, what other instances do we see in Tolkien's work of this??

[HerenIstarion]

Probably - green mires = dangerous place
Still more - green mould on rotten things = danger of decease

But not all green is pernicious - the 'greenery' is often (and more so with Tolkien) as a symbol of wholesome place/situation/thing

Nice to see you back, joy, dear

[mark12_30]

Hi, Joy! Interesting question!

In a sense, all green things grow from something else that is dead or decayed. Without leaf mulch, your green trees wouldn't be green. Without decaying grass, the new grass wouldn't be so healthy either.

Forests are green, but good.
Fields are green, but good.
Swamps and meres are green-- but icky.
Underwater moss is green, but icky to step on.
Rotting food is green, and definitely icky.

I think I'll stop there for the list.

What other colors in LOTR are ambivalent?

How about black? Isn't it odd that the Guards of the Citadel are robed in silver and... black? And the tower of Orthanc, whick was built by good guys, is black.

How about White?

Gandalf the White is good.
Saruman the White is slipping fast. The White Hand is bad.
Minas Ithil started out white and good. Now it's green, sickly, yuck. And (interestingly!) there are white flowers in the river that comes out of Imlad Morgul that are evil, stinky, nasssssty. Bad flowers??? Hello???

Red Flame is ambivalent too: Narya is good; Orodruin is bad. Flaming Roggie is bad (Oh, how about just misunderstood and persecuted?? )

But back to the Green...

Food for thought. But I'm wondering if the key isn't in the concept of good vs bad decay-- perhaps unnatural decay or wrongful decay? Poisoned decay? And therefore contamination. More later.

[Imladris]

You know, I never really realized that before, especially since green is the colour that makes us feel relaxed and comfortable.

On the subject of mold: mold itself isn't inherently bad. Basically, it's like the process which mark12_30 has pointed out about the grass.

Bilbo's door is green, and he was a good guy. Of course, you could also refute that point by saying that Bilbo was the Ringbearer of Sauron's Ring, which had an effect on him, making him feel like butter being stretched over to much bread, etc...

So maybe green is an ambigous colour, used by both bad guys and good guys. The Rohirrim, also, had green banners.

Half formed thoughts here...like mark12_30 said, more later.

[HerenIstarion]

Bibo's door was painted green before he became the ring-bearer

On the other hand, it was painted green just before he went away on a journey which, eventually, led to his becoming the ring-bearer. Sinister, that...

Definitely aftermath of reading Dan Brown (not that I agree with his conclusions, but still) recently in my case - seeking hidden symbolism in quite innocent things

[The Saucepan Man]

According to studies that I have seen, we are conditioned to react with disgust against certain colours that occur in nature (such as green and yellow) in certain circumstances (particularly, as mark 12_30 says, when they are slimy or sticky green), because they are associated with disease. For example, we are less likely to want to touch a bowl of sticky green liquid than a bowl of sticky blue liquid. Blue, since it occurs rarely in nature, does not evoke such a strong reaction. Here is a fun test which makes the point.

Of course, green also represents vitality, again because it is a natural colour. So, we are told to “eat our greens” because they are good for us. And I am sure that I am not alone in deriving great pleasure from the image of sunlight on leafy trees. Also, in international signage, green represents "go" or safety, whereas red represents "stop" or danger.

So it is ambivalent, but it’s more likely to provoke a bad reaction in situations where we don’t expect it. Also, the shade will make a difference, so the pale dull green of Minas Morgul (as captured well, I think in the RotK film) will seem threatening. But I imagine the green of Rohan’s banners and Bilbo’s door as a pleasant, vibrant green.

Green can also represent danger, in that it is used by some predators (amongst the reptilian and insect worlds) as camouflage. Perhaps Old Man Willow falls into this category.

[symestreem]

Green is found as a representation of good in the colors of the Rohirrim, the Elessar, Bag End as Saucepan mentioned, and various other devices. I think that the ambivalent colors indicate that anything can be used by the enemy.

I think The Saucepan Man hit the point.

...it’s more likely to provoke a bad reaction in situations where we don’t expect it.

Green leaves or green grass are ok, but green fumes are not. And like mark12_30 says, it's the same with any color.

Black clothes are fine, but the all-black darkness of the black riders is something odd and scaring.

And Saruman's white is not a real white any longer. It's made from all colors, and it's some kind of the optical illusion. Very unusual at the Third Age, a long long time ago...

It surely was peculiar to Sir Gawain to meet the Green Knight. But the Red Knight or the Pink Knight would have been the same thing. All the real medieval knights were actually rather gray, I think. The synthetic colors was made up much more later. And before that there was not a way to color brightly.

Sauron, of course, was a master to demonstrate his might by producing the things unnatural.

[THE Ka]

Green as evil?! WHOA! i must be far behind in the times. I thought green meant you were a genius... well, maybe you could be genius/evil... like me....

Other things green is associated with: Earth elements, luck, fertility, healing, balance, empolyment, prosperity, courage, agriculture, changing direction or attitudes.

But, if you are thinking about a greenish-yellow it is closer to evil, ( if that is what you consider is evil or negitive): to negate discord, sickness, anger, jealousy.

And of course white: purity, protection, truth, meditation, peace, sincerity, justice, warding of doubts or fears. These are some things associated with white. This is why i think the tree of Gondor is called the "white" tree of kings...

Well, i done giving a metaphyscial lesson... i don't think you'll find any of this information surprising... i think i have a babbling tendency on the downs...

[THE Ka]

Yay! my 100th post!!! cake and cookies for everyone!!! sorry, i'm just happy...

so, here's some more color info:


silver: lunar magic, meditation, psychic development, success, balance, wards negitivity... this also is another color associated with Gondor... hmm, starting to see a pattern?

okay. i'm done now...

[Joy]

Thank you for your replies. This has been a very enlightening discussion.

Saucepan Man - that was an interesting test there. A little gross, but interesting!

[Sharkû]

The real question is, do all of those many, many interpretations of the colour green which have been mentioned here bear any significance towards Tolkien? Is green really the colour of the Quendi? And if so, does it make them seem dangerous or even evil?

[Kransha]

Originally Posted by Sharkû

The real question is, do all of those many, many interpretations of the colour green which have been mentioned here bear any significance towards Tolkien? Is green really the colour of the Quendi? And if so, does it make them seem dangerous or even evil?

Ah, but there is my point 'in fact,' so to speak.

To reference the above paragraph written by yours truly, my opinion holds that the obvious presence of green in the different medium descriptions of Tolkein and its presence in his names outright must say something. Legolas, being Greenleaf, is inevitably good. Greenwood the Great was good until its 'greenness' started to evaporate, thus becoming Mirkwood. Dol Guldur, the citadel of evil in Mirkwood, was set upon the hill of Amon Lanc, which is described as being "bare of trees" and presumably other greenery; it is, after all, called Amon Lanc (read: Bald Hill). I would have to do more research about the Quendi themselves, but I think that there is a certain level of good and evil in most colors. Green isn't inherently evil, but, like a lot of things, can be corrupted. Forests are good, containining wise ents and beauteous trees, but also scary, referencing their ominous vastness and Old Man Willow. Similar with the 'green as a representation of dead stuff' theory. The Barrow-Wights, for all intents and purposes, are just plain bad, but the Dead Men of Dunharrow were corrupted by good (an odd statement). Both sides.

P.S. Someone refresh my memory, were the Dead Men of Dunharrow actually described as green? Or is that just another cinema-induced assumption I came to?

[Bombadil]

In re-reading the Sil, i came upon a quote of green things:

Green things fell sick and rotted...

this behavior occurs after Melkor contaminates much of Arda with his hatred. This would imply that green had an original status of good, and was given a bad connotation by Morgoth- which goes for all that once would have been. Thus, my theory would be that since Melkor was only able to create in mockery of light, his evil affect on green would never match the intensity green could have for light.

[HerenIstarion]

by Kransha

Someone refresh my memory, were the Dead Men of Dunharrow actually described as green? Or is that just another cinema-induced assumption I came to?

Movie thing, no mention of green in the books. First they are described as 'shadows of men' and 'pale', and then thus:

And lo! in the darkness of Mordor my hope rose; for in that gloom the Shadow Host seemed to grow stronger and more terrible to look upon. Some I saw riding, some striding, yet all moving with the same great speed. Silent they were, but there was a gleam in their eyes. In the uplands of Lamedon they overtook our horses, and swept round us, and would have passed us by, if Aragorn had not forbidden them

and thus:

But Aragorn halted and cried with a great voice: “Now come! By the Black Stone I call you! “ And suddenly the Shadow Host that had hung back at the last came up like a grey tide, sweeping all away before it.

Grey is the word

by Bombadil

Thus, my theory would be that since Melkor was only able to create in mockery of light, his evil affect on green would never match the intensity green could have for light

you have the point there.