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10-14-2011, 06:22 PM | #1 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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In a hole in the trench there lived a soldier
...Or, in other words, another hint in Tolkien's writings about his experiences of World War One.
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In the hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a dugout, but a proper dwelling. What do you think of this parallel? It looks like visions of the war still popped up in JRRT's mind unconciously. Did you notice any other instances where there are, as if, references (read: NOT allegories) to either World War? Other moments of Tolkien's life? I know that there was a similar thread about parallels to the Wars somewhere, but I can't remember the name and the search was not fruitful. If someone finds the thread(s) a mod should probably delete this one.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 10-14-2011 at 06:41 PM. |
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10-14-2011, 08:15 PM | #2 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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I'm not sure that particular example *is* a WWI parellel, G55. I'd say it's just addressing the reader's preconceptions– explaining it wasn't the kind of place you'd automatically think of when you hear the phrase "hole in the ground".
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10-14-2011, 09:03 PM | #3 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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No, it's not a parallel. It's more of a subconcious memmory showing through. Though maybe you're right about this one.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
10-15-2011, 02:06 PM | #4 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Just like Nerwen, I'm not sure indeed whether the "dugout" necessarily refers to any "trench memories", even if it was unconscious. However, I shouldn't have a say on this at all since I am not a native English speaker, so I have no idea which connotations the word might have in general.
I would believe, however, that there might be some real "slips" like that present in the works here and there. Now I am not really talking about some deeply psychological stuff - the mere idea of starting to dissect Tolkien's works in order to find some Freudian slips or other stuff pointing to his past traumas or whatever makes me sick, I don't think it would be even appropriate. But there are, of course, things, which he himself had reported to be in some way inspired by his WW (ahem! I hope you all do know how to read this abbreviation) experiences, like the Dead Marshes or stuff like that. And I think that it might be indeed possible to find something which may not be so "obvious" on first sight - not in the sense that "oh, the fact that he had not mentioned Balrog's wings points to the fact that when he was seven, a magpie had stolen his favourite toothbrush", which is basically the kind of things I meant above, but more like the "dugout" stuff, if it was indeed true. Random thing that comes to my mind, and I'm not even sure if I haven't read about this somewhere - the scene when Bilbo wakes up after the Battle of the Five Armies, wasn't this somehow connected to some war experiences of Tolkien, or maybe some impressions or things that had occured to him (awakening after the battle when nobody was there anymore)? Does anybody know whether there really wasn't anything written about that anywhere? Or if not, do you think it would be possible that such a thing would be something inspired by the War experiences (I don't know, like, spending some time unconscious and missing a large part of the battle)?
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
10-15-2011, 03:19 PM | #5 | |
Dead Serious
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In this connection, Tolkien's other depictions of battles might be interesting to consider. The battles of the First Age that get the most attention are almost the exact opposite of the Battle of the Five Armies: laid out in full detail, but the forces of good are utterly crushed (the Nirnaeth is the main battle that comes to mind, but Túrin's losses on Amon Rûdh, at Nargothrond, and the fall of Gondolin come to mind). The victories in "the Silmarillion," on the other hand, are like the victory in The Hobbit: the War of Wrath is never given much detail, neither are the first three great Battles of the First Age, such as the victorious Dagor Aglareb ("glorious battle"). The Lord of the Rings is interesting in this respect, and I'm not quite sure if it will fit with the idea I'm running with, since the good guys tend to win the battles that are laid out: Helm's Deep, the Pelennor, and the Morannon. The only thing that springs immediately to mind is that all three battles are eucatastrophes, as outnumbered forces of good win out against the odds--and through the intervention of another force showing up just in time. In other words, one might say that without Gandalf (and the Valar), any one of these battles could have been a minor Nirnaeth. It's food for thought, anyway--and, as I said, Tolkien's rejection of glory in war is on par for a WWI vet.
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10-15-2011, 04:19 PM | #6 | |||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Generally speaking, though, I think one would think "nasty, dirty, wet, squished, rat-infested, etc, hole in the mud that does little but keep the rain off your head". Not a very pleasant description. The quote from TH is certainly much milder. Quote:
I found this article. It doesn't say anything about JRRT being unconcious. However, I see other instances that repeat themselves in the legendarium. It mentions the Dead Marshes in the end. Mrs. Sumner is like Rosie, Captain Evers is like Gandalf, and Tolkien himself is like Faramir. The list could go on forever. However, I don't want to turn this into yet another thread that looks for direct parallels between the WWs and LOTR/TH/The Sil. I'm looking more for the subtle things, such as accidental references or descriptions that match an experience. You could say that Sam's thoughts about the dead Haradrim in Ithilien were a reflection of Tolkien's own reaction to the War, though I'm not sure it's accidental. Edit: xed with Form Quote:
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 10-15-2011 at 04:23 PM. |
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10-15-2011, 05:33 PM | #7 | |||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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10-19-2011, 12:49 PM | #8 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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I totally missed the most obvious one: Mordor landscape.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Galadriel55; 10-19-2011 at 12:52 PM. |
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