Weapons in Vallinor?

[Aeglos]

Hi im new to this forums and i have loved the tolkien legendarium since i was a little kid. So dont be rude if i ask dumb questions. But one thing i find strange is. At the kinslaying of elves. How did the noldor have weapons. What use did they have in vallinor? And if the valar saw the elves making weapons why didnt they stop them, because there was no need for it, and could only be used to bad things like violence and murder. So what do you think?

[Draugohtar]

Originally Posted by Aeglos

Hi im new to this forums and i have loved the tolkien legendarium since i was a little kid. So dont be rude if i ask dumb questions. But one thing i find strange is. At the kinslaying of elves. How did the noldor have weapons. What use did they have in vallinor? And if the valar saw the elves making weapons why didnt they stop them, because there was no need for it, and could only be used to bad things like violence and murder. So what do you think?

Well the ingredient 'X' here is Morgoth. The Valar couldn't really understand how Morgoth could be irredeemably evil, and believing him reformed, he was left to spread lies and discord.

The Silmarills then come into the equation and become a thing 'too' precious to the elves, and which Morgoth can use as leverage to ramp up suspicion and disharmony.

As soon as the concept of jealous love for 'things' entered into the hearts of Feanor and co. it was a short 'hop' of reasoning to begin making a means to defend their treasure.

As for the Valar 'seeing' this, they aren't Gods, and they aren't omniscient or omnipresent. There is only one God in the Tolkien universe; and whilst Manwe sees much, he does not see all. For example Ungoliant's shroud of unlight was impenetrable to his eyes. Eru would have had no trouble with that, or indeed anything at all.

Thus, the trusting Valar, seeing only light and beauty in Valinor, saw no reason to think anything was amiss. All the work of weapons making was done in total secrecy, lest 'thieves' of the Silmarils become aware and act.

Once Feanor had unsheathed his sword to drive off his half brothers from counselling wisdom to their father Finwe, so the discord and arms race amongst the Noldor was set in motion.

As for the kinslaying, well again it comes down to the jealous love of things, and Feanor's arrogant idiocy (as well as his father's foolishly unswerving loyalty.) Once the elves had it in their minds to return to Middle Earth and take up rule there, those weapons developed for the protection of things, were turned to new hideous purposes (As well as weapons of hunting that everyone had good reason to have: The elves and the Valar weren't vegetarians :P)

The Valar do not prescribe against free-will. The elves were free to come, free to go. Free to make weapons, free to act as they would. They were counselled otherwise, but the Valar do not want mastery as per Morgoth. Had they known of Morgoth's lies earlier, and the rash actions of a younger Feanor, then I'm certain intervention with good counsel and the punishment of Morgoth might have changed how things turned out.

However when it all started to go to the bad, the Elves were free to find their own bad fortune. Whilst the curse of Mandos is grim, it's important to note that the Elves themselves bring the curse down on themselves. Thingol makes himself part of it later on, simply by falling under the spell of greed for the Silmarills.

In short, the Valar were decieved, the Eldar learned jealousy and a need to protect their treasure, Morgoth's lies succeeded, and the Valar would not stop the free will of any of the children of Illuvatar, no matter how catastrophic.

[Inziladun]

Welcome, Aeglos!

It is said in the Silmarillion that Fëanor was taught the art of metal work by his father-in-law Mahtan, who had in turned learned from Aulë.

It was Melkor though, who suggested to Fëanor that he should make weapons, fomenting discord between Fëanor and his half-brother Fingolfin. Fëanor made a forge for fashioning weapons, and not even Melkor knew about that. It therefore seems reasonable that the Valar themselves did not know about the weapon-making until it had already been done.

As to why the Valar did not actively seize all weapons, perhaps they knew it would have been pointless: the Noldor had the means to make more if they chose.

x/d with Draugohtar

[Galin]

There's another interesting aspect too, concerning the possibility of weapons on the Great March...

'Now the Quendi had possessed weapons in Middle-earth, but not of their own devising. They had been made by Aule and sent as gifts by the hand of Orome, when it became known to the Valar that the Quendi were beset by prowling evils that had discovered the places of their dwelling beside Cuivienen; and more were sent later for the defence of the Eldar upon the Great March to the shores of the Sea. But all these were long unused, and lay in hoard as memorials of old days half-forgotten; and since the chaining of Melkor the armouries of the Valar also had been shut.'

Morgoth's Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II), Later Ch. 6, S52a, pp. 276-27

Christopher Tolkien chose not to incorporate this LQII idea into the 1977 Silmarillion of course.

[Alfirin]

I will also point out that the the Elves actaully would have use for weapons in Valinor, for hunting. It is implied that, unlike the Elves themselves, the animals of Valinor are not immortal, and I think it is said outright that hunting is still a common pastime for elves in the blessed lands. For example, Tuor's sword has an ivory shealth, and it is likey the sheath and sword were made for him while in Valnior. I might see how there would be a shortage of swords in Valinor amongst elves who were not preparing to leave for some reason (a sword is not exactly a hunting weapon), but things like bows and arrows and spears and such would be common day to day items, always available.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I will also point out that the the Elves actaully would have use for weapons in Valinor, for hunting. It is implied that, unlike the Elves themselves, the animals of Valinor are not immortal, and I think it is said outright that hunting is still a common pastime for elves in the blessed lands. For example, Tuor's sword has an ivory shealth, and it is likey the sheath and sword were made for him while in Valnior. I might see how there would be a shortage of swords in Valinor amongst elves who were not preparing to leave for some reason (a sword is not exactly a hunting weapon), but things like bows and arrows and spears and such would be common day to day items, always available.

To that point, it was also said that the Teleri of Alqualondë had bows with which they fought Fëanor's host. One might question what peaceful need for bows there might be for a people who lived on the coast and presumably got their food from the sea.
Yet, Melkor apparently had no hand in their armament. Perhaps they had heard rumors of the Noldor's smithying, and decided to get weapons of their own in imitation, knowing nothing of the reasons for the Noldors' arming themselves.

[Mithalwen]

Don't forget that many innocently designed domestic implements can be a weapon at need. In the UK there are laws about carrying offensive weapons and so you can get into a lot of trouble if you carry an obvious weapon without reason... but when I was young and first driving and before I had a mobile phone I happened to keep the wheel brace under the passenger seat rather than in the boot of the car and savvy women know that a bunch of keys or some coins and a lighter make a good knuckleduster and perfume sprayed in the eyes can be pretty effective - all items that it is perfectly reasonable for a lady to have about her person.

Few sailors will step aboard without a knife since you may have to cut rope to save a life. They built boats.. they would have lots of nasty stuff..

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

To that point, it was also said that the Teleri of Alqualondë had bows with which they fought Fëanor's host. One might question what peaceful need for bows there might be for a people who lived on the coast and presumably got their food from the sea.
Yet, Melkor apparently had no hand in their armament. Perhaps they had heard rumors of the Noldor's smithying, and decided to get weapons of their own in imitation, knowing nothing of the reasons for the Noldors' arming themselves.

Well, there is such a thing as bowfishing. But more to the point the fact that just beacusev the Teleri lived by the sea does not mean they didn't hunt land game when it was available. Living by the sea does not mean that it forms your exculusive source of food. And how about if they wanted sea birds for supper (people do eat many sorts of sea birds, besides the obvios geese and ducks) They almost certainly had spears too, for killing things like very big fish and seals, or at least harpoons (and what essentially is a harpoon but a spear with (possibly) something on the end to make it float or attach it to your arm or the ? while Tolkein didn't say it, I've always sort of assumed that, in a world where things like Olipaunts were wandering around (Valinor is supposed to have every animal in ME and then some) the elves probably still made use of the alatal (spear thrower) so they probably would have had those available too.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Well, there is such a thing as bowfishing. But more to the point the fact that just beacusev the Teleri lived by the sea does not mean they didn't hunt land game when it was available. Living by the sea does not mean that it forms your exculusive source of food. And how about if they wanted sea birds for supper (people do eat many sorts of sea birds, besides the obvios geese and ducks) They almost certainly had spears too, for killing things like very big fish and seals, or at least harpoons (and what essentially is a harpoon but a spear with (possibly) something on the end to make it float or attach it to your arm or the ? while Tolkein didn't say it, I've always sort of assumed that, in a world where things like Olipaunts were wandering around (Valinor is supposed to have every animal in ME and then some) the elves probably still made use of the alatal (spear thrower) so they probably would have had those available too.

The Teleri's hunting game is not out of the question, of course. It just seems odd they would have enough weaponry to actually give the Noldor a good fight, if they only used bows for hunting.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Aeglos

How did the noldor have weapons. What use did they have in vallinor? And if the valar saw the elves making weapons why didnt they stop them, because there was no need for it, and could only be used to bad things like violence and murder. So what do you think?

Let's start before Valinor. The Elves were given weapons from Aulë to defend themselves on the Great March. While in Valinor there was not much need for weapons in self-defense so they were kept away. However, on a side note, to me this implies that many of the Eldar in Aman knew how to fight and had some skill in wielding weapons of war/slaughter/etc.

Weapons were taken up again in Aman after Melkor spread his lies among the Noldor and mentioned "the power that they gave to them that has them to defend his own" [MR, p. 276] The forges were put to work in the remaking of their old weapons that "were long unused, and lay in hoard as memorials of old days half-forgotten" [p. 277] Not only were weapons wielded but shields and armor, and different clans made certain weapons in secret from others, not revealing their own personal arsenals.

Now later on, in the first slaying in Aman, there is a passage which again implies to me that the Eldar had skills in the craft of fighting as Finwë goes down in battle with Melkor and Fëanor believed ["had he been at Formenos, his strength would have availed more than to be slain also, as Morgoth had purposed" p. 294] if he were there he could have protected his father implying he was also a trained fighter.

"We heard the sound of great blows struck. Out of the cloud we saw a sudden flame of fire. And then there was one piercing cry.... we came to the house. There we found the king slain at the door. His head was crushed as with a great mace of iron.... he had stood alone, defiant. That is plain; for his sword lay beside him, twisted and untempered as if by lightning-stroke."

[Rhod the Red]

As a sort of side issue, the attitude towards weapons in public seems the same as in stereotypical medieval society. You have the 'right to bear arms', etc.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Rhod the Red

As a sort of side issue, the attitude towards weapons in public seems the same as in stereotypical medieval society. You have the 'right to bear arms', etc.

Stereotypical as in representation through movies ect. ?

If so, then yes it seems like it was tolerated.
(But I doubt that there was a "right to bear arms" in most medieval societies)

Mind you that there is a constant war going on in Tolkien's work, stuff like that has a tendency to heighten peoples tolerance of public display of weapons ...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Stereotypical as in representation through movies ect. ?

If so, then yes it seems like it was tolerated.
(But I doubt that there was a "right to bear arms" in most medieval societies)

I'm hardly an expert, but I don't think commoners were often armed in medieval times. Swords were pretty much the mark of a knight or mercenary.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Mind you that there is a constant war going on in Tolkien's work, stuff like that has a tendency to heighten peoples tolerance of public display of weapons ...

There was no war in Valinor though, and no obvious enemy from which Fëanor should have felt the need to arm himself against. The lies of Melkor induced Fëanor to see enemies even when they weren't there.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

There was no war in Valinor though, and no obvious enemy from which Fëanor should have felt the need to arm himself against. The lies of Melkor induced Fëanor to see enemies even when they weren't there.

Yes and the weapons were forged in secret, and only shields worn openly. Fëanor's confrontation with Fingolfin was especially scandalous, beyond the fact that he openly threatened his own brother, because of the fact that he came in not only bearing his shield, but wearing a helmet and wielding a sword (note that he presumably had no other armour because mail was invented by the Dwarves in Middle-earth).

So while the open wearing of weapons may have been relatively commonplace among Men in the Third Age it seemingly was not normal or actively sanctioned behaviour for the Eldar in Aman.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'm hardly an expert, but I don't think commoners were often armed in medieval times. Swords were pretty much the mark of a knight or mercenary.

Yes that was what I was trying to hint at, that there is a difference between the "stereotypical" representation and how things actually were back then...

My area of history is mostly Early Modern, so I am not clear on all the finer details in medieval times either. However I am fairly certain that it was at this time it became an exclusive privilege for the nobility (In Denmark) to bear arms openly... it was a symbol of status. Also in Danish society it was the whole justification for the privileges of the nobility was that they were also the armed forces, the defenders of the realm... so there was a whole lot of symbolism mixed in as well.

It might have been allowed for common folk to have swords in the early medieval period, but I doubt it would have been a general tendency, as swords cost silly money... A regular person probably wouldn't have been able to afford more than an axe.

Anyways...

Originally Posted by Inziladun

There was no war in Valinor though, and no obvious enemy from which Fëanor should have felt the need to arm himself against. The lies of Melkor induced Fëanor to see enemies even when they weren't there.

Maybe not, but the point is still valid. Since before the first age, elves were fighting a bitter war, A war that even had a spin-off, with Sauron cast as the main villain. Granted sometimes there was peace, or at least not open conflict, but it still lasted thousands of years. So yeah, in a world that doesn't seem to have an exclusive warrior class, that would probably result in armed people being a relatively common sight.