Does Saruman lose his ability to use magic when his staff is broken? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ghanberryghan · 06-28-2012, 09:29 AM

In The Lord of the Rings I had a hard time distinguishing between 'magic' and 'power'. I normally thought that Saruman didn't because he still had his voice which was more "powerful than rhetoric" - implying that his voice is what gave strength to his speech rather than his choic of words.

And when Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff he later goes on to say: "He has power still whilst in Orthanc, I think, to resist the nazgul. He may try to trap it, or slay the steed it rides upon." Was he implying Saruman can still use magic?
But at the same time, when in the Shire, Frodo tells the other hobbits that Saruman has lost all power save his voice.

Inziladun · 06-28-2012, 09:47 AM

The breaking of Saruman's staff was largely a symbolic measure, stripping Saruman of all "authority" to act in Middle-earth given to him by his superiors in the Blessed Realm. With the loss of that authority though, I believe his power to affect the physical world in "magical" ways was indeed at least seriously curtailed.

I think the key to Gandalf's words is in the phrase "in Orthanc". That tower was too strong for even the Ents to break or enter, so Saruman could have held out against the Nazgûl there at least temporarily (as long as he had food and water).

Galadriel55 · 06-28-2012, 12:04 PM

As Zil said. Breaking the staff meant breaking Saruman's authority. He still had his physical power (Orthanc), and some of his innate power (his voice, his cunning) - but the latter was deteriorating for quite some time, so he failed to execute his power over Gandalf, Theoden, etc. His voice only convinced those with weaker or more trusting minds, and even then not all.

blantyr · 06-28-2012, 01:36 PM

My feeling is that wizard's staves, much like the rings, amplified the power of the user. Most enchanted items, such as blades, boats, jewels that give off light, balls that let one see far away and cloaks that make one harder to see, each had specific functions. The staves and rings seemed much more general purpose tools.

Thus, I would think breaking Saruman's staff was a blow to his power, but it would be hard to point at this specific ability or that and say what was lost.

Aragrax · 08-10-2012, 06:19 PM

Saruman was implied to have no real "magical" power during the War of the Ring. He had turned against the light, so no true power came from above to him. However. . .

He was a master of science, a thing generally unloved by JRRT, and that power he had in spades: propaganda, industrialization, eugenics, explosives (and, apparently, given his tailoring, optics).

He even made a ring for himself, and while the making of rings was generally presented as the binding of things into a controlled state, those things already existed. Such was the way of evil in Tolkien's world; to twist the created into un-beautiful forms for some lesser, selfish purpose. The power of creation, and thus of light and true "magic" (tho JRRT preferred other words for such) was lost to him forever, long before his staff was shivered. Note that the storm on Caradhras was not of his making, and he had no telekinetic ability either; these were inventions of PJ.

Draugohtar · 08-11-2012, 08:34 AM

I think it's important to state that the Istari are embodied Maiar, and thus independently powerful beings ie independent of whatever allegiance they choose to adopt.

Gandalf is still potent enough to slay the Balrog with a broken staff.

Rather the staffs appear to be badges of office, channels of power perhaps, but not particularly puissant gifts of the Valar. Galadriel furnishes Gandalf with his new staff post his return as Gandalf the White. Mightiest of the elves remaining in Middle Earth she may be, but I doubt her crafts match those of the Valar.

I think, rather, that Saruman is corrupted and spent as a force, further I would speculate that via the Palantir and his ensarement by Sauron, his own power became very much tied to that of Sauron and the one ring.

Gandalf, also, on their reunion is made significantly more powerful than he, effectively negating everything but his voice.

Thus I see Saruman as being in a steady decline of his own causing, the loss of his staff only symbolic of his casting out. His corruption and allegiance to Sauron reduce him, and once the one ring is destroyed, he is further cripped to his 'Sharkey' status.

06-28-2012, 09:29 AM	#1
Ghanberryghan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 14	Does Saruman lose his ability to use magic when his staff is broken? In The Lord of the Rings I had a hard time distinguishing between 'magic' and 'power'. I normally thought that Saruman didn't because he still had his voice which was more "powerful than rhetoric" - implying that his voice is what gave strength to his speech rather than his choic of words. And when Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff he later goes on to say: "He has power still whilst in Orthanc, I think, to resist the nazgul. He may try to trap it, or slay the steed it rides upon." Was he implying Saruman can still use magic? But at the same time, when in the Shire, Frodo tells the other hobbits that Saruman has lost all power save his voice. Last edited by Ghanberryghan; 06-28-2012 at 09:39 AM.

06-28-2012, 09:47 AM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,036	The breaking of Saruman's staff was largely a symbolic measure, stripping Saruman of all "authority" to act in Middle-earth given to him by his superiors in the Blessed Realm. With the loss of that authority though, I believe his power to affect the physical world in "magical" ways was indeed at least seriously curtailed. I think the key to Gandalf's words is in the phrase "in Orthanc". That tower was too strong for even the Ents to break or enter, so Saruman could have held out against the Nazgûl there at least temporarily (as long as he had food and water). __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

06-28-2012, 12:04 PM	#3
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,370	As Zil said. Breaking the staff meant breaking Saruman's authority. He still had his physical power (Orthanc), and some of his innate power (his voice, his cunning) - but the latter was deteriorating for quite some time, so he failed to execute his power over Gandalf, Theoden, etc. His voice only convinced those with weaker or more trusting minds, and even then not all. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

06-28-2012, 01:36 PM	#4
blantyr Wight Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Settling down in Bree for the winter. Posts: 208	Staves My feeling is that wizard's staves, much like the rings, amplified the power of the user. Most enchanted items, such as blades, boats, jewels that give off light, balls that let one see far away and cloaks that make one harder to see, each had specific functions. The staves and rings seemed much more general purpose tools. Thus, I would think breaking Saruman's staff was a blow to his power, but it would be hard to point at this specific ability or that and say what was lost.

08-10-2012, 06:19 PM	#5
Aragrax Newly Deceased Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 8	Saruman was implied to have no real "magical" power during the War of the Ring. He had turned against the light, so no true power came from above to him. However. . . He was a master of science, a thing generally unloved by JRRT, and that power he had in spades: propaganda, industrialization, eugenics, explosives (and, apparently, given his tailoring, optics). He even made a ring for himself, and while the making of rings was generally presented as the binding of things into a controlled state, those things already existed. Such was the way of evil in Tolkien's world; to twist the created into un-beautiful forms for some lesser, selfish purpose. The power of creation, and thus of light and true "magic" (tho JRRT preferred other words for such) was lost to him forever, long before his staff was shivered. Note that the storm on Caradhras was not of his making, and he had no telekinetic ability either; these were inventions of PJ.

08-11-2012, 08:34 AM	#6
Draugohtar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 23	I think it's important to state that the Istari are embodied Maiar, and thus independently powerful beings ie independent of whatever allegiance they choose to adopt. Gandalf is still potent enough to slay the Balrog with a broken staff. Rather the staffs appear to be badges of office, channels of power perhaps, but not particularly puissant gifts of the Valar. Galadriel furnishes Gandalf with his new staff post his return as Gandalf the White. Mightiest of the elves remaining in Middle Earth she may be, but I doubt her crafts match those of the Valar. I think, rather, that Saruman is corrupted and spent as a force, further I would speculate that via the Palantir and his ensarement by Sauron, his own power became very much tied to that of Sauron and the one ring. Gandalf, also, on their reunion is made significantly more powerful than he, effectively negating everything but his voice. Thus I see Saruman as being in a steady decline of his own causing, the loss of his staff only symbolic of his casting out. His corruption and allegiance to Sauron reduce him, and once the one ring is destroyed, he is further cripped to his 'Sharkey' status.