"You carry the fate of us all, little one."

[tar-ancalime]

OK, I know this is the Books forum, and that's a line from the Movie, but hear me out:

I've been thinking about Frodo lately, my interest having been sparked by Child of the 7th Age's comments on the "Unstuck in Time" thread. I'd like to share my crackpot theory and invite comments, criticism, or maniacal laughter:

I was thinking that Frodo isn't just a member of the Fellowship; in an important way, he IS the Fellowship. Long after the Fellowship is physically broken, it remains whole in Frodo and the things he carries (much like the Tim O'Brien book): he wears a Dwarvish shirt, carries an Elvish sword and cloak, and of course bears the Ring that controls the fate of the world. In this way he's going forward bearing the standards of not just the hobbits, but also the Elves and the Dwarves: together, these are the three races that will diminish, sail away, and/or hide deeper in the earth after the end of the Third Age. This is why Frodo doesn't carry any tokens of Men: when he destroys the Ring, no Men need to accompany him because he isn't destroying their world or their way of life. This is underscored by Merry's and Pippin's oaths to Rohan and Gondor, respectively: those hobbits who remain "in the world" and fight in the conventional war swear their allegiance to the race that will prevail in the age to come, while Frodo's journey into Mordor need only be accompanied by those races destined to fail.

This ties in with my opinion (posted on the Chapter-by-Chapter forum) that the Fellowship itself is largely symbolic: it works on two levels. First there is the physical Fellowship consisting of the Company of Nine, and then there is the wholly symbolic Fellowship consisting only of Frodo and the items that have been given to him.

It's not until very late in the story that Frodo loses his Elvish and Dwarvish gifts, and even then Sam tries to keep them for him. The end of the journey, in which Frodo is naked and alone, is the part I"m having trouble reconciling with my theory (I told you it was a crackpot idea!). Does the fact that he loses his tokens deflate my theory, or can the journey through Mordor be seen as separate from the rest of the Quest, a time when all Fellwoships must fail and Frodo must look into the Void on his own?

( haven't got time now, but I will post again later with links to the other two discussions I mentioned.)

[Boromir88]

Tar-ancalime, I like this theory you have come up with, and here's my two cents.

As brought up in the "Chapter-by-Chapter" threads, Frodo is a person that not only blames himself for HIS OWN mistakes, but he blames himself for the MISTAKES of OTHERS. It's like some sense of "perverted control," he puts all this blame on himself, and basically "accepts" the sins of others. This sort of goes on with your point about the Elvish cloak and sword, and the Mithril. I do think that it is to symbolize eventhough the Fellowship has broken physically, the fellowship still remains in Frodo, or as Frodo. I'll have to do some more thinking on your other point however, about Frodo was bearing these Dwarvish and Elvish items with him, because they are the races that are falling, slipping into decline. I'm not sure about that yet, I'll have to do more thinking, but I like the connection you made about Frodo symbolizing "The Fellowship." Or I wonder, if you think, that the bearing of these "foreign items" is more of a way to stress Frodo putting everyone's mistakes on his shoulders. Literally, that's how it is, the fate of Middle-Earth rests on Frodo's shoulders, he's bearing this with everyone's life at risk, he fails Middle-Earth is doomed, he suceeds all is happy. So, I wonder if it's more symbolism by Tolkien, on Frodo "carrying" the weight of the World on his shoulders.

[Neferchoirwen]

I think that it's okay to say that the Fellowhip is really Frodo's Fellowship. The quest was his in the first place. Since it's no small chore that Frodo takes, all of Middle Earth with him. with its fate resting around his neck. So it is proper for 8 other people to take on the quest with him.

At the very end of the story, though, we see Frodo naked. What I think about that is that Frodo confronts his task alone for the first time, in the middle of it all. Now that he is at Mordor, he may turm his back on the quest now that he finds that he has survived it and thinking that not "all that."

At that "naked moment," the choice of giving up the ring to the fires of Mordor lie solely on Frodo. It's his decision in the end, and no matter how pure he is, as a Hobbit far removed from the "outside" world, the Ring chooses no one and corrupts nevertheless. Had the entire Fellowship been there, then it would have been chaos with everyone arguing about who should throw it in and who shouldn't, or worse: who should finally keep it and kill everyone in the end.

So to answer your question, Frodo does looks into the Void on his own. He is the Ring bearer, and he has to face the task of facing the Void. The Quest that he finishes brings him to himself. All of the Fellowhip have other things to fulfill, and he is left alone.

[tar-ancalime]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies!

Boromir88, interesting idea about Frodo taking on the sins of others. Do you think of this as having a Christian resonance? In other words, are the Cracks of Doom Frodo's Crucifixion? Is the ship from the Grey Havens his Ascension?

(I'm using the word "resonance" here because I stand firm in my position that Tolkien didn't put any overt Scriptural references into his writing; I think he kept the influences of his faith on a more thematic level.)

Neferchoirwen, you are spot-on here:

the Ring chooses no one and corrupts nevertheless.

[Novnarwen]

Interesting discussion Tar-Ancalime.

It's interesting what Boromir says, about taking the sins of the others. But when thinking this over and reading Tar-ancalime's last post, I must say that I question it.

Boromir88, interesting idea about Frodo taking on the sins of others. Do you think of this as having a Christian resonance? In other words, are the Cracks of Doom Frodo's Crucifixion? Is the ship from the Grey Havens his Ascension?

Oh, well, maybe.. (?) Galadriel points out very clearly that Frodo is the only one who can do this; save Middle-earth. Jesus too, was “The Rescuer..” Frodo takes the sins of others and accepts them. Jesus, according to the Bible, did as well. Frodo leaves Middle-earth after accomplishing his task; casting the ring into the flames of Mount Doom. Jesus dies (crucified) after spreading his message.

All in all for both for them: MISSION COMPLETE.

But why would Tolkien make Frodo a Middle-earth Jesus? That sounds odd to me. He was trying to make a mythology, not a new Bible.

Are we somewhat tearing Lord of the Rings to pieces by trying to interpret every single little detail? And can we interpret it differently? Sometimes I am under the impression that since we know that Tolkien was a Christian, we try interpreting his works exactly in that direction. What if we didn't know this? Would we think differently of things, and this matter? I'm aware that authors often are influenced by things, such as religion, but surely to a certain degree. Personally, I have difficulties believing he would intentionally make LOTR a new Bible.

PS! Here is a link to a great post. This is more on the Christianity question, about bearing the sins, and Frodo being a Middle-earth Jesus. Christianity. The whole thread is rather fascinating…

Nova

[tar-ancalime]

Sometimes I am under the impression that since we know that Tolkien was a Christian, we try interpreting his works exactly in that direction.

Novnarwen, I'm with you. Personally, I definitely prefer to come to Tolkien's work with a broader outlook, but I know that many readers do interpret his work with an eye towards Christianity. I was wondering if this was the way Boromir88 was thinking of it, given his comments about Frodo "taking on the sins" of others in Middle-Earth. Care to weigh in, Boromir88?

Interesting link, too--there have been lots of discussions on the Downs about Tolkien's relationship to Christianity, but I do think the most important point to be made is this (and I've said it before): these books are for EVERYONE to read, and the themes within them are universal enough for everyone to be able to understand them. These stories are neither parables nor fables, which may be why they are so rich and seem so ripe for analysis (as in this forum). There are always many possible interpretations, none of which cancels out the others--the more we can know or intuit about these works, the better.

[Encaitare]

If any character were to be considered a Christ figure, I would say it would have to be Gandalf. But as is laid out in the beginning of FotR, the book is not meant to be an allegory, but to be applicable. So I suppose we can apply it to nearly any situation we like and somehow come up with something reasonable.

[Boromir88]

Ahhh, I stand corrected, it seemed to have slipped my mind, how Tolkien deals with the "fate" of the middle-earth peoples. Can't we give Gollum a little love? lol.

[Neferchoirwen]

A train of thought...

Frodo brought the Ring to where it belongs (clearly, evil has no place in middle earth...unless of there are those who choose to fight it), but inspite of his purity (his hailing from the Shire which says a lot about obscurity, and his intentions to go at this alone risking the loss of his identity and wholesome self), he lost it and decided that the Ring was his at the last minute.

Enter Gollum. He is no longer a hobbit, and was forgotten by his own people, and Shire-folk barely remember a Smeagol existing when they were still cave-dwellers. He couldn't be called a Hobbit, and so he was a race of his own, a glitch brought by the malice of the Ring.

Both he and the Ring don't belong to ME, and so into the fires of Mordor do they perish.

They were glitches, and Frodo had to do the dirty work.

[Encaitare]

Both he and the Ring don't belong to ME, and so into the fires of Mordor do they perish.

They were glitches, and Frodo had to do the dirty work.

I suppose that was why Agent Elrond figured it was a good thing for Frodo to go... "Gollum and the Ring are a virus... and Frodo is the cure."

[Neferchoirwen]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

I suppose that was why Agent Elrond figured it was a good thing for Frodo to go... "Gollum and the Ring are a virus... and Frodo is the cure."

ok...It's weird to admit that I just got the agent Elrond virus joke just now.

I never realized that that's what it meant, and how seriously I thought about it. Must be the late night/early morning brain lapse.

Oh jeepers.

[Essex]

Obviously Frodo is incomplete in that he fails in the end and his Quest is only allowed to succeed through divine grace.

No, not divine Grace, but (if you must, divine) REDEMPTION.

Everyone talks about Frodo Failing (even tolkien mentions it in his letters). But HE DID NOT. By his and Sam's kindness towards Gollum in not killing him on the many occasions that felt they might have a right to, Frodo did not fail.

If gollum was dead, frodo would have been accosted, and (no doubt) after a brief struggle would have succumbed to the Nazgul and finally Sauron.

But, because of their Kindess, Frodo (and Middle-earth) were redeemed. (again I think tolkien mentions this in his letters). Gollum intervened and fell into the cracks of doom. There was no other way that the Ring would have ended up there. No one could throw it in of their own accord. Frodo, in his great wisdom, realised this just before he entered the Sammath Naur.

'No, no, Sam,' he said sadly. 'But you must understand. It is my burden, and no one else can bear it. It is too late now, Sam dear. You can't help me in that way again. I am almost in its power now. I could not give it up, and if you tried to take it I should go mad.'

But he continued on his Quest, without hope. This, in itself, is enough to redeem him for me, but his kindess to gollum is what really helped him COMPLETE HIS QUEST.

Therefore Frodo did not fail. It really does bug me when people (and it seems a majority of people) say he failed.

Well done Frodo.