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05-10-2005, 08:15 AM | #1 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 10 - The Choices of Master Samwise
We’ve reached the last chapter of Book 4, which is also the last chapter of The Two Towers – congratulations and a big thanks to all who are still with us! It begins and ends in great suspense with Frodo’s desperate fate, though he himself remains passive throughout it, first presumed dead and then known to be only unconscious. As the title reveals, this is Sam’s chapter, showing his courage and determination, but also his limits.
Sam accomplishes something that no great warrior has ever done, wounding Shelob! He takes up the tokens of Frodo’s quest – first the sword, then uses the phial which he already carries, and finally the ring. Is there any significance to the fact that he did not attempt to take the mithril vest off his master? Again Galadriel is invoked – one of Tolkien’s Catholic revisions, perhaps, giving her more of the Virgin Mary’s function? In song, it is Varda who is called upon – both female – yet another indication of the importance of Mary in the Catholic church? I always find it interesting that a book normally thought to be rather patriarchal has its characters praying to females, rather than their male consorts/counterparts. It’s also interesting to see that the Phial is “interactive”, apparently responding to the person or situation in which it is used. What additional details do we learn about Shelob here, especially her weak spots? Sam reacts with grief, then anger, then despair. Then he makes his decision – was it the right one? Later on, he doesn’t think so, but what would have been different had he stayed with Frodo? Would he have been able to save him from captivity? He shows the truth in Gandalf’s words that there’s more to a hobbit than one first thinks, rising to greatness yet remaining humble. Quote:
What more do we notice about the effect of the Ring when he puts it on? We are introduced to two orc leaders, Gorbag and Shagrat – let’s discuss their conversations and what we deduce about orcs from them. Isn’t it funny that Gollum gets the same nickname from orcs that Sam gave him – Sneak?! The chapter (and book) ends with the ultimate cliff-hanger, a sentence that has become one of the best-known: Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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05-10-2005, 10:04 AM | #2 | |
Riveting Ribbiter
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This is one of my favorite chapters.
Following up on the discussion of Shelob's fear of the Phial as opposed to Ungoliant's hunger for the Silmarils, I wonder if this reflects the continued fall of Middle Earth; even evil beings sought light in the beginning. Now they have fallen further and no longer seek it. I also find it interesting that she is vulnerable through the eye, aka the window of the soul - not sure how to follow up on this just yet. Sam's reactions make some of the most moving portions in the book. I still find myself growing misty-eyed when I read this passage: Quote:
Finally, I had the cliffhanger experience when I first read this chapter. I had to take the books out of the library one at a time and The Return of the King was checked out when I was ready to pick it up! The few days I had to wait before finding out what happened next were indeed torturous. I can't imagine waiting longer. I hope this is coherent. I'm running on sleep-deprivation mode with lots of caffeine right now. That's never a good thing... |
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05-10-2005, 07:07 PM | #3 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Even Mordorian orcs dislike being around the Nazgul. In fact, I detect some traces of Nazgul envy. The orcs don't like serving Sauron, but they are afraid of the Free Peoples as well. Gorbag also does not believe that Sauron pays enough attention to what his orcs try to tell him. Gorbag also wants to run off somewhere and Shagrat seems to have fond memories of the past when he was out on his own. One wonders if Sauron instituted an orcish draft of some sort... Sauron also apparently had his own version of the NKVD. Gorbag, at any rate, does not have much trust in the word of his superiors. Gorbag also seems to have a more talkative personality than Shagrat. He also seems the more intelligent of the two. He's the one who voices many of the ideas early in the dialogue and Shagrat just makes ambiguous remarks that seem to tend toward agreement. However, Shagrat is clearly no dummy. He is observant and knowledgeable, at least as far as the area of his own command is concerned. He seems to possess a rather practical mind. Shagrat is also rather prickly about his command, a trait he shares with Ugluk. Shagrat also may have what might be a rather sunny personality for an orc (har har). Notice how he accuses Gorbag of excessive pessimism and is determined to deal with what is under his control before he starts worrying about something else. Also note... Quote:
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05-11-2005, 10:43 AM | #4 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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A single thought from one who hasn't posted on these threads before:
Isn't it a little interesting to note that even though Ungoliant and her descendants (Shelob) devour the light, that they must recoil at such baubles as the phial of Galadriel? Why do you suppose that happens? And I really do like the occurences that happen with the orcs. Not only as Kuruharan pointed out, Sauron has a physical body, Sauron doesn't have mind-boggling powers over all his orcs, because they don't all know what he knows and don't work together completely as a team (The conversations between Shagrat and Gorbag). bilbo_baggins |
05-11-2005, 02:55 PM | #5 | |||||||
Illustrious Ulair
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SHELOB
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Tolkien makes it clear that Shelob is not simply a big spider - she is ‘an evil thing in spider form’. In an early draft for the story we find an interesting statement: Quote:
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More, hopefully, later. Finally for now though, a few things that struck me in my reading of HoME. First of all, there’s the interesting idea, which Tolkien rejected, of having Gollum lead the orcs to Frodo’s body, which made me think of the obvious parallell with Judas leading the soldiers to arrest Christ. I can’t help wondering to what extent, as the story became more ‘mythological’, as Good & evil became more & more ‘solidified’ & grounded in the story, whether Tolkien had increasingly to fight against it becoming ‘allegorical’. Would such a blatantly Judas-like role for Gollum have increased the Christ-like nature of Frodo? And a couple of questions: first, when Sam finds Frodo ‘dead’ he wishes to make a cairn over him, but can’t find enough stones. Quote:
Second: Have we here an early reference to Sanwe in the conversation between ‘Gorbag’ & ‘Shagrat’: Quote:
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05-11-2005, 05:44 PM | #6 | |
Dead Serious
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05-12-2005, 08:54 PM | #7 | |
Itinerant Songster
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05-13-2005, 05:35 AM | #8 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Kuruharan, I see what you mean, & I may have overstated the case - though I think there is a case to be made. Remembering Frodo on Amon Hen, caught between the Eye & the Voice, & eventually breaking through & surfacing - & feeling himself to be 'neither the Eye nor the Voice' - or something like that, I wonder about his freedom once he had accepted the task, & whether the powers that be took that into account. Did he have any freedom as far as they were concerned. I suppose one could ask whether he became not only their 'pawn' but rather the victim of 'fate', to be used for the greater 'good'. I wonder what this tells us about Tolkien's own attitude to the life & purpose of the individual. Perhaps we see Frodo's ultimate 'failure' again foreshadowed here - finally he is overwhelmed by an external power too great to be withstood. His selfhood is gradually broken down by these external powers making use of him for this 'greater good'. Yes, he agreed to take the Ring to the Fire, but did he agree in full knowledge of what he would become? He agreed to be an actor in the cosmic drama, but not a pawn in the 'game'.
But to move on... Sam's relationship to Frodo is spelled out most strongly in this chapter. His defence of Frodo is likened to a creature defending its mate. He 'looks back' to where his life 'fell into ruin'. He desires, if he achieves the Quest, to return & die by his master. It seems Sam is like a lost soul once Frodo is gone & he has no thought of home, of Rosie, of the future. Frodo is the whole purpose of his existence & without him Sam feels life, existence, has no purpose. Even if he manages to destroy the Ring there will be no point in living. What does this tell us about the difference between Sam & those 'powers' that are using him & Frodo? These Elves & Wizards seem to lack Sam's simple huma compassion. Perhaps this shows us why it is time for Men to take over & those powers to pass away. Yes, they will take the magic away with them, & everything will become mundane. The bright, sharp colours, tastes, smells, the extremes of light & dark, will pass from the world, but the simple love of one person for another will remain, even flourish, without all that. Sam is of the simple good green earth - its significant that he is a gardener not a 'wizard or a warrior'. He earths the Story & proclaims that simple humanity is superior to 'Fantasy'. Sam's simple love of his master is the higher virtue. Finally, to your earlier jokey(?) comment: Quote:
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05-13-2005, 08:43 AM | #9 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Not all the powers working on him were working for the greater good. I still think that his acceptance of the Quest implies a degree of consent to being temporarily dominated by things like the Phial if his life and Quest were in jeopardy. I sense much potential for discussion fodder in the Mount Doom chapter. Quote:
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05-13-2005, 11:57 AM | #10 | |||
A Mere Boggart
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As to how the Phial works, I have to admit I'm thinking along the lines of Sanwe again. The Phial is a device of Light primarily, but it is when holding it and thinking of Galadriel that the Hobbits utter their invocations. Galadriel has filled the Phial with water from her fountain, which holds the light of Earendil, and she is the bearer of the Ring of Water. If, as I have pondered on before, the Three (and the other rings too) are invested with powers of sanwe, then the Phial could also hold this power along with its powers of Light. I think that both Frodo and Sam open their minds out to the Elves/Galadriel and that she or they answer through them. Note also that the One has a reverse effect when worn, seeming to convey fear instead, the sense that the mind is open and naked. Is it good that Good forces have such an influence on mortals? Frodo and Sam have accepted the challenge of taking this burden to Mount Doom, and yet it is also semeingly fated that they should have to do this. I like to think of them as akin to Aragorn, who also is fated to take on a burden, and who like the Hobbits accepts his burden come what may. In fact, are many of the characters we meet in LotR truly free? Many of them seem to be fated to take their part in particular circumstances. Their freedom comes in with how they deal with the situations they are thrust into. Going back again to what I said about the destruction of evil, it cannot be defeated if it is just left alone, nor can any of the characters we meet play their parts if they refuse to take part in the first place. I think that this is part of the nature of 'stories'. What would be the point of reading about an Eowyn who made the choice of stopping home in Edoras? Or a Sam who did not snoop at open windows? Quote:
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05-14-2005, 10:02 AM | #11 | ||
Itinerant Songster
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Your post was cause for me to change my sig. Sorry if I'm repeating what others have said, since Lal's is the last post I've read so far, but there is one way that Evil can win over Good, and that is for Good to succumb to such vices as cowardice, pride, vanity, chosen ignorance; in a phrase, to refuse to do what it should when called upon. Authorial sovereignty? Into the big hole we go.... Quote:
The sexual undertones of Shelob's defeat at Sam's hands was not lost on me this time around. I found it interesting that our little hero has not lost his "sting". But where is Gollum? Hiding? Fallen? Why is he not anywhere to be found at this point, considering that he shows up again later? Last edited by littlemanpoet; 05-14-2005 at 10:25 AM. |
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05-13-2005, 12:00 PM | #12 | ||
Dead Serious
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And, to quote Gorbag in this chapter: Quote:
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05-13-2005, 12:04 PM | #13 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Good also has fewer tools at its disposal since deception and trickery are out of its arsenal. However, this may be only a short term disadvantage.
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05-14-2005, 01:43 PM | #14 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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05-15-2005, 12:29 PM | #15 |
Riveting Ribbiter
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I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before, but what about the Galadriel/Shelob opposite pairing? Galadriel, as the lady of light, can be taken as the exact opposite of Shelob and her darkness (both female!). That could shed some "light" on Shelob's fear of the Phial and Galadriel over Earendil - it brings the two opposite halves of the pair into direct conflict. In the same way, it puts another twist on the idea that Galadriel is working through Frodo and Sam when they break into Elvish - again, are we actually seeing the opposites thrown into direct contrast?
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05-21-2005, 04:42 PM | #16 | |||||||||
Banshee of Camelot
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I can’t say anything to the discussion above (never having heard about Lilith) but in general I agree very much with what Lalwendë wrote:
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Btw Tolkien wrote in a letter to Christopher 1944 (#72): Quote:
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When he takes the starglass he says „It’s too good for me „ and when he finally makes up his mind: Quote:
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As Faramir already told him : Quote:
I was also very intrigued by the (untranslated) Elvish invocation Sam uttered. In time I found out the meaning, but it still is mysterious how this came to be. About the Orcs: I noticed that their style of speaking seems quite modern , as opposed to the noble speech of the Gondorians and Rohirrim. About spiders: Quote:
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Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat! |
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05-25-2005, 07:20 PM | #17 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Loved your post, Guinevere! I agree. I also found it interesting what you posted about Tolkien and spiders. I've heard over and over that it was due to his own fear of spiders that Shelob became what she was...But I think I like knowing that he didn't hate them the way I had thought!
This is one of my favorite chapters in the whole of Lord of the Rings. I still cry every time I read it. I know Frodo is not dead, but Sam's heartbroken reaction just gets me. He has to be my favorite character in all of Lord of the Rings...or if not THE favorite, very close...and this chapter is, in my opinion, his finest hour. I love that he moved from being a character who takes a mostly-secondary role to Frodo, into a leading role here. That's certainly not to slight Frodo, or to say that I was glad that he was hurt...but it gives Sam his chance to shine. I could relate to him somewhat because I always second-guess my decisions as he does: Quote:
...(I just realized how hard it is to post on this particular topic. There's so much I want to say, but it's difficult for me to find the words to say it, and it's very frustrating for me. I'm going to take some time to gather my thoughts and maybe continue again later...*sigh*)
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05-31-2005, 10:02 AM | #18 | |||||||
Cryptic Aura
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Guinevere, I enjoyed your thoughts about this chapter very much, particularly your thoughtful comments on Sam. It doesn't really matter that you don't know anything about Lilith. You can enjoy the chapter very much as it is without that layering of possibilities; in fact, you provide other, equally rich possibilities. However, in case you are interested in other fantasy writers and in the legend of Lilith, you might want to take a look at George MacDonald's book, Lilith. MacDonald was a powerful influence on C.S. Lewis, less so on Tolkien himself, although Tolkien acknowledged him. MacDonald's interest in the imagination and fantasy anticipates that of Tolkien and Lewis. In many ways, he was a precursor. Readers don't have to know MacDonald's ideas to appreciate Tolkien's, but knowing MacDonald's thoughts on how our imagination creates meaning provides a wonderful context in which to consider Tolkien. Tolkien mentions both MacDonald and Lilith in his famous essay, "On Fairy-Stories". Quote:
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I will begin by pointing out that dragons are absent from LotR, but that for Tolkien, dragons were formidable creatures of great evil. In fact, Tolkien's ground-breaking essay on Beowulf owed much to his insistence upon the profound importance of dragons in our imaginative lives. Here's a passage that bears some thinking about in terms of Shelob. Quote:
Those attributes derive from a long history of misogyny, a history which is predominate in literature of the middle ages, but not limited to that time. Most of the attributes refer to bodily functions in their most repellant aspects, such as the stench, the uncontrolled appetite, the vast breeding, the voracious feeding upon others, the despicable way they uspet man's self-control. The Lilith legend is part of this, (although, as I say, MacDonald's Lilith is not given the extensive sensory imagery which Tolkien gives Shelob, even though MacDonald's Lilith has a fearful animal form. MacDonald's Lilith is Victorian, which Tolkien's is not. The Angel in the House cast a long shadow). Tolkien I think was brilliant in clothing this legendary aspect of early literature in animal form and not in human female form, but the tradition of fear of the female body is nonetheless made available in his story. I'm not by any means saying that Tolkien's Shelob = MacDonald's Lilith. There are great differences! Yet the concept of the loathsome, self-loving and self-serving female who describes all manner of evil self-indulgence and threat to lawful order links the two. Why does this matter to me? What does it add to my understanding of Tolkien? It allows me to see how his ideological framework works its way out in LotR. In that ideology, the pure, beautiful, and muse-like female, worshipped on the pedastle, counterbalances the disgusting, fearful female of chaotic impulse. Does Tolkien's Shelob have to be read this way? By no means! Yet for me this supplies another layer of wonder to the richness of Tolkien's imaginative creation. This is, to me, thoroughly in keeping with Tolkien's thoughts about how the imagination gathers, chooses, combines material to bring forth new revelation. Last edited by Bęthberry; 05-31-2005 at 10:57 AM. Reason: correcting codes and typos. added a reference |
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05-31-2005, 03:06 PM | #19 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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It is quite possible to view Shelob/Galadriel as the light & dark aspects of the Goddess (Lilith or one of her sisters), as it is possible to see in the Gandalf/Sauron pairing the twin aspects of Odin - wandering wizard//necromancer, but this leads to confusion, in my opinion, because just as Gandalf & Sauron are autonomous figures, with histories & motivations which do not correspond in any way to the history & motivations of Odin, so Shelob & Galadriel do not partake of the myth of Lilith in any significant way. Shelob is, first & foremost, a big monster, & the role she plays is not that of Lilith, but of the 'killer' of Frodo & the nemesis of Sam. She is made as ugly & threatening, as monstrous in every aspect, as possible - mostly, I would say, for very simple reasons - the main one being that the confrontation with her creates a magnificent climax to the Frodo/Sam/Gollum storyline. Yes, Shelob is female, but that was dictated, I think, by Ungoliant being female. Ungoliant was the manifestation of 'unlight', of the void, that which consumes & absorbs into itself all light. But, it could be argued, that's only pushing the Shelob/Lilith 'equality' back a stage, & that it actually strengthens the argument of equivalence by 'doubling' it. Perhaps. But there is a very ancient tradition that the deity that initiates the apocalypse is female. This can be seen in the Prophecies of Merlin in Geoffrey's History of the Kings of Britain, where the Goddess 'Ariadne' 'unweaves' the cosmos she created in the beginning & takes back everything into the void. She creates (or 'weaves) all things into being at the Beginning, & destroys ('unweaves') all things at the End. So, we have both aspects of the primal Goddess manifest, the creator & the destroyer, the one who builds up & the one who breaks down. Ultimately She manifests the forces of both anabolism & catabolism. This also accounts for 'her' association with the spider. Now, Tolkien has presented us with multiple 'light' 'goddesses', principally Elbereth & her 'avatars' Galadriel & Melian, & also with 'dark' goddesses, again principally Shelob & Ungoliant. As with Odin, these 'Light' & 'Dark' aspects are split off, & seen from that perspective both aspects lose somthing of the depth, conflict & mystery of the original archetypes, but this is what we have from the hand of Tolkien. As I said in another thread, Shelob & Galadriel (as Gandalf & Sauron) must stand by what they are within the world they inhabit. The more external, primary world, input that is necessary to elucidate them the less effective they are as characters in their own right, & the more they become cyphers or 'allegories'. Now, it could be argued that the root cause of this 'split' was Tolkien's own attitude to death, his desire to understand & make sense of the 'gift' of death. Death becomes a problem to be solved, or at the least an ugly thing which must be explained & shown to have purpose in a universe created & ruled over by a loving God. The original myths from which the Lilith stories derive saw life & death as aspects of each other, with the Goddess standing at each 'gate', giving life & being & taking it away. Once the division of life=good & death=evil comes into play such archetypes fragment & no longer serve a useful purpose. So, there you have it - my interminable ramblings on why Lilith isn't Shelob - which I know isn't what you claimed at all, but I'm posting it for what its worth... |
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06-01-2005, 11:50 AM | #20 |
Dead Serious
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A rather flippant, and to me amusing, thought occurred to me in reading this thread.
Perhaps the reason that Shelob is a she-lob (female spider) has to do with the simple fact that in nature, the female spiders are the larger and more dangerous ones, often eating their own mates. Perhaps Galadriel was female for the same reasons: Celeborn could not be married to a male elf.
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05-31-2005, 12:29 PM | #21 |
Illusionary Holbytla
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This is definitely one of my favorite chapter. I was absolutely stunned the first time I read it. After all, how could Frodo be dead? (Of course, being the fairly gullible reader I still am, I fell for it, even after Gandalf turned up alive...) Then, to my great relief, Frodo is still alive... but then what!? I was fortunate enough to have taken both TTT and RotK out from the library at the same time, but that didn't help, as the storyline switched back to the other characters to my disappointment. Anyway.
Some comments on Shagrat and Gorbag. Up until this point, there hasn't been a lot to say that Orcs are any more than basically evil beings, mostly characterized by greed, selfish ambition, cruelty, (in some cases, intelligence, though in itself this is neither good nor evil) and loyalty to his own respective (bad) side, whether Saruman, Sauron, or themselves as is the case with the Moria Orcs. Basically your ordinary, evil minions of the bad guy (very simplified, I know). In Shagrat and Gorbag, however, we see two fairly reasonable characters. Though they do exhibit a few of the aforesaid traits, all each of them is doing is looking out for his own skin. They clearly have no particular affinity for either Sauron or the Nazgűl, and even though their service is more or less willing, what they really want is to "set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads... and no big bosses." The only reason they would seem to want to win the war is because if Sauron is done for, so are they. Lalwendë's comparison (post #7) to middle-managers is a good one, I think - they don't really know what's going on, and can't really affect it, but they're concerned about it in how much it affects them. From what we can see of these two from this chapter, they seem to be of a fairly decent sort, even likable. On to Sam. This really is Sam's chapter. We've had glimpses into Sam's character, and we have a pretty good idea of Sam's personality, but this is a great chapter. Frodo is a very passive character in this chapter, and this shifts all the light onto Sam, who has hitherto always been rather in the background, both in the writing of the story and in his own actions - after all, his whole purpose for even being there was because of his loyalty to Frodo. So now, Sam is in the limelight and we get to see him at his best, despite his honest mistake of believing Frodo dead. We are told once again that Sam does not have and has never had any real hope, but his will, determination, and loyalty are enough to keep him going. Let there be no doubt: Sam's subservience to Frodo is not because of weakness of character. This just occurred to me: in many ways, Sam is very like to Faramir. Consider this quote of Faramir's: "War must be while we defend our lives against a destroyer that would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend: the city of the Men of Númenor." Now consider Sam. Sam is not one to go seek war and glory by victory, though not for lack of courage. His love and loyalty is to Frodo, and to defend what he thinks to be Frodo's dead body he is completely willing to take on some eighty Orcs - despite certain death to him and a failure of the Quest. |
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