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11-08-2004, 04:16 AM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 09 - The Great River
This is a transitional chapter. It takes place on the river that forms the border between two enemy forces, that demands a choice of goal before it ends. It is relatively short and seems to have less weighty content, compared to other chapters. There is much description of the lands through which the Fellowship passes on this part of the journey.
The scene is being set for future developments - Gollum shows up, Boromir resists Aragorn's decisions, and an orc attack comes dangerously close to injuring them. Aragorn shows his kingly side once again when they pass the Argonath. What do you find particularly interesting about this chapter? What feeling does reading it give you?
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
11-08-2004, 05:32 AM | #2 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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I'm going to try to sneak in a quick post before I need to get going.
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I don't have enough time to get in what I wanted (I'll be back, lol). But, here's a bit more on Boromir's wittiness, which may be the funniest one yet. Quote:
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11-08-2004, 06:31 AM | #3 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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This is, as Esty says, a transitional chapter - a journey by river, various dangers faced & overcome, the appearance of the Nazgul on a Fell Beast, & the sight of the Eagle, whose significance will become apparent later. And yet, in the midst of this 'travelogue' Tolkien gives us one of his most profound explorations of Elven psychology, in Legolas' account of the Elves relationship to time: Quote:
How many other writers could introduce ideas like his into a ‘transitional’ chapter & make it work? |
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11-08-2004, 07:52 PM | #4 | ||
Stormdancer of Doom
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On the other hand, it's sad, isn't it, that that's what Boromir does in one of the elven boats?
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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11-08-2004, 11:13 PM | #5 | |||||||
Beloved Shadow
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I always bite my nails though. Quote:
And someone mentioned Boromir's wit but didn't give this quote- Quote:
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Also, I was thinking back to the first time I read LOTR (with my father many years ago) and I am fairly certain that it was during this chapter that a particular thought first struck me- Frodo and Sam are going to get seperated from the others. In Lorien they went to the mirror by themselves and now in this chapter they discuss Gollum privately and decide not to bother Strider about it. I dunno, I just remember thinking that Frodo and Sam had kind of distanced themselves from the others somehow (maybe because they drawn closer to each other). But on the subject of Gollum, it turned out that Aragorn already knew much more than they did, and had actually tried to catch him during their river journey (without the hobbits realizing it). Aragorn really is amazing. And I know this might be a bit off-topic, but Aragorn said- Quote:
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And I just thought I'd mention that the Argonath and the gorge it is in is one of the things that captured me on my first read. I would empty my checking account to travel that part of the Anduin. Quote:
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11-10-2004, 07:25 AM | #6 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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How did Gollum escape Moria? Gollum exiting Moria Nothing definitive, but a good deal of informed speculation.
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11-10-2004, 09:16 AM | #7 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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(I think Gollum climbed/crawled out of one of those light-shafts.)
The Argonath: Sam's fearful reaction to the Argonath puzzles me. I can't relate to it. I love wind, and cliffs (if I'm at the bottom, and not at the top near the edge) and I love storms, and thunder and rough water... Anyway, I never understood Sam's reaction. Maybe Tolkien was trying to paint the scene as a sort of "Cape Horn", a dangerous place; but it doesn't seem dangerous to me so much as exhilarating. |
11-08-2004, 02:51 PM | #8 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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I wanted to bring up some striking parallels between the Company travelling in Moria, and the company travelling down the Anduin.
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11-08-2004, 03:13 PM | #9 | ||
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
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I noticed that twice the number eight is used in Boromir's post above...
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Or perhaps this is just me reading way too far into things. As the company leaves the realm of Galadriel, they spy black swans in the sky, a sharp contrast to Galadriel's white swan-ship. The Elves seem to be very much connected to or enamoured of swans -- seen in the name "Alqualonde" and how in the Lay of Nimrodel, Amroth went "riding like a swan." The black swans are almost like the anti-Elf, the negative image of everything they stand for and love: beauty, timelessness, song. The company enters the barren lands south of Lorien and loses all that; their comfortable stay is without a doubt over. |
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11-08-2004, 07:38 PM | #10 | |||||||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Boromir's prophecy
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And now, on to my current favourite subject: Boromir. There is ample evidence here that, following his experience in Lothlorien, he is suffering inner turmoil: Quote:
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Boromir's growing obsession with Frodo, and more particularly Frodo's burden, is also evident when he resolves to continue with the Fellowship to the Tindrock: Quote:
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11-13-2004, 01:58 AM | #11 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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(Its also Legolas ‘great’ moment within the LotR for me, so I wanted to single it out before we move on.) |
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11-13-2004, 02:26 AM | #12 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Frodo calls the shadow Cold, as opposed to the balrog. That sent me back to Weathertop and other nazgul encounters, and the words cold, chill, icy are pervasive throughout the Nazgul encounters and discussions of Frodo's knife-wound. Still thinking about when evil in M-E is hot, as opposed to cold. The B-W was cold as well so it's not a Nazgul-only thing. Death-cold versus demonic-hot perhaps. Morgoth's servants hot, Sauron's servants cold...? (it might make more sense in the morning... I may edit then)
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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11-13-2004, 08:48 AM | #13 | |
Laconic Loreman
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11-13-2004, 09:52 AM | #14 | |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Playing in Peoria
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I would even say that without the events at the end of FotR and begining of TT, Aragorn would not have been ready to assume his throne in Gondor. His blaming himself for his indecisiveness leading to the capture of Merry and Pippen taught him a valuable lesson that served him well for the rest of his life. |
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11-13-2004, 11:09 AM | #15 |
Laconic Loreman
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Well said Aldarion. That is why I'm glad Aragorn didn't go to Minas Tirith at this stage of the journey, because clearly he wasn't ready for it. But, by the end of the story he has become a changed Character indeed.
I know I've said this many times, and I'll say it again, because I think it supports another point. In one of Tolkien's earlier writings, Aragorn goes to Minas Tirith, with Boromir. Boromir goes against Aragorn's throne claiming and starts stirring up a civil war. Aragorn then has to kill Boromir before he gathers too much support. This is similar to the Arvedui claim. Where Arvedui clearly had the "proof," and the "right" to the throne, but he didn't have the support of the Steward, or the full support of the people, causing the Kin Strife. I'm afraid if Aragorn goes with Minas Tirith with Boromir, he only has the "proof" to the throne, he doesn't have the support of the people. How does Aragorn get this support, his battle experience, at the Morannon, and at Pelennor. Then, the people are rallied behind him, and even the Steward Faramir, knowing it is wise to step down, because Aragorn has the right to the throne, and seeing Aragorn's battle experiences he has the support of the people. Where if he simply went to Minas Tirith at this stage, and took claim to the throne, the people would see him as a nuisance, and could try to go against him. |
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