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08-28-2017, 03:24 PM | #1 | ||||
King's Writer
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2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
This is the first draft of the chapter 2 Of Valinor and the two Trees.
Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 10; page 152-156. Were ever the text is different from that including the changes introduced in the second phase (LQ2) this is marked by an editing mark. The markings are: VT-LQ-xx for Valinor and the two Trees and changes that Tolkien introduced himself, in the second phase of the work on the Later Quenta Silamrillion. I will not comment on these. They are only marked to make the construction of the text visible. VT-EX-xx for Valinor and the two Trees, Expansions Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
VT-LQ-01: We have to eliminate the footnote due to the fact that Ćlfwine is out of our version. VT-EX-02 and VT-EX-03: Here I found a first snippet from LT that seemed to me worth considering. The choosing of the place for Valinor is given more space and a direct speech that was lost from the later versions. VT-EX-04: This is explaining with the text from LT what LQ said only one half-sentence. VT-EX-05: This is a long insert reaching until VT-EX-14. It is the description of the homes of the Valar from LT. Later in Tolkiens writing we never got such an detailed look into Valinor again. VT-EX-06, VT-EX-08, VT-EX-10, VT-EX-11, VT-EX-14: In LT the Trees were already in being when the mansions of the Vala where build, but in the later chronology that was different. Therefore these changes. VT-EX-07: I don’t think that Yavanna is any longer ‘the mother of all magic’. VT-EX-09: ‘magic’ was later avoided by Tolkien in the descriptions of the works of the Valar. VT-EX-12: In the Valaquenta we are told that Oromë trained his host in Valinor, for me that can only mean that they hunted in the woods. VT-EX-13: Here I removed not only the reference to the Trees. I could not find any editing worth the information in which the sparse use of the light would be kept. VT-EX-15: Here I replaced the bar § from LQ by a much fuller account from AAm. VT-EX-16, VT-EX-23, VT-EX-24 and VT-EX-25, VT-EX-26: The description of the Trees in LT is more detailed and transports much more of the beauty of these wonders of the Elder Days. VT-EX-17, VT-EX-18, VT-EX-19, VT-EX-20, VT-EX-21, VT-EX-22: In LT the golden Tree was the older one. But that was later changed. These changes are to adapt the text to the alter chronology. VT-EX-27: A passage from AAm that is missing in LQ. VT-EX-28, VT-EX-29: The detail from LT who had given the first names to trees should not be lost. VT-EX-30: This is Yavannas instructing for the watering of the trees. I think it is later never mentioned, but it seem still valid for me, because of the ‘the Wells of Varda’ that Ungoliant drank and the fact that the trees could have been restored to life had there been some of their light left in Valinor. VT-EX-31: This is an editorial bridge to get the insert about Silindrin working. VT-LQ-04: I think this commentary in the footnote has to go. VT-EX-32: Since we have Kulullin and Silindrin the Vardas Wells are not alone as hort for the light of the Trees. VT-EX-33, VT-EX-34 and VT-EX-35: These add the use and its effect of the Wells of Varda. VT-EX-36: Here we add the rest of the chapter from Ainulindalë. There is nothing corresponding to it in LQ. Respectfully Findegil |
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08-29-2017, 12:47 PM | #2 | ||||||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Thoughts
This draft was amazing, and I love the inclusion of the BoLT material! I always wished we got more of a description of Valinor, and when I read the Lost Tales I was thrilled, so its nice to see them back.
VT-EX-03: in this paragraph there is (perhaps) a minor contradiction. In this paragraph we have the phrase: Quote:
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VE-EX-05: In the paragraph after this it describes Ilmarin and its great, but I have a linguistic note. Quote:
VE-EX-11.2: This is not related to the times of the creatin of the trees, but I was not sure how else to label it. In the paragrph describing the house of Tulkas, it describes the lawns of Nessa thus: Quote:
VE-EX-11.3: The very next paragraph is thus: Quote:
VE-EX-14.5: The paragraph describing Fui wife of Mandos cannot, in my opinion, be used to apply to Vaire or Nienna, as neither of them is strictly a death goddess anymore. Quote:
VT-EX-15: the sentence: "That city they named Valimar the Blessed." is redundant, since its naming and making was described earlier. VT-EX-29: The transition between Lorien's naming and the others feels jarring to me. I know you and I can clash often about stylistic changes, but I figure I'll propose mine and see what you think. Quote:
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That was all I saw. It was great! |
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08-30-2017, 03:34 PM | #3 | |
King's Writer
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VT-EX-03: You are right. I suppose we remove 'very broad'. I will name that change VT-EX-03.2.
VT-EX-05: Agreed: Quote:
VT-EX-11.3: Omar and Salmar: I wagly remember a discussion about this pair. With the result that I kept Salmar and removed Omar. In chapter 4 I simply forgot about it. But probably I have to look up the old discussion. VE-EX-14.5: Agreed. We have to look for a solution. I like your idea to change the desscription of the jugdement of Men to Mandos. VT-EX-15: Agreed. I will name that change VT-EX-15.3. VT-EX-29: Agreed. VT-EX-36: Agreed. I will name that change VT-EX-37. Respectfully Findegil |
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08-30-2017, 06:11 PM | #4 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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VT-EX-14.5: Here is my suggestion:
Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 08-30-2017 at 06:21 PM. |
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08-31-2017, 01:18 PM | #5 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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What do we know about Nienna and Vairë? See here descriptions in the Valaquenta:
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So what do I make out of it: The Hall Fui is very unlikely a place ‘loved’ by Vairë. If the work of Míriel is taken as an example the House of Vairë is by no means dark form the inside. It must then be rather colourful. For Nienna on the other hand in here mourning and in teaching ‘pity, and endurance in hope’ the Hall Fui to which the dead Men are summoned and where they wait for a time before going to the fate Men, seems a very fitting place. Especially since the fate of Men had to be accepted in a way with ‘Estel’ only not with ‘Amdir’, that is with belief in the good will of Eru rather than with hope build on experience. That said, I propose the following changes:[quote] So fair were these abodes VT-EX-14 {and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor} that {Vefantur}[Namo] and VT-EX-14.2{Fui}[Nienna] his {wife}[sister] of tears might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the north-ward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh Arvalin, they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Namo], and he called that hall {with his own name }Vę. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of {Silpion}[silver light]: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while. There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might VT-EX-14.3{again }be {born into their children}[re-housed], and go forth to laugh and sing again. To Vę {Fui}[Nienna] Last edited by Findegil; 09-01-2017 at 03:20 AM. |
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08-31-2017, 08:37 PM | #6 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I heartily disagree with this change for two reasons. Firstly, Nienna is said in the Valquenta to have Halls apart that are west of West upon the borders of the world. Therefore, while it says she comes to Mandos, she is not said to have a hall therein where she sits and passes judgement. Vaire, however, is said to dwell in Mandos, and is also said to have a house. These two facts would let us believe that she has halls in Mandos that are set apart for her. I do agree with you that the description of Fui does not fit her house at all in the later conception, and so cannot be assigned to her. But the fact remains that Nienna does not have a hall in Mandos, as she has already her own halls alone. She does not pass judgement on souls, but gives them comfort and consolation.
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As you say, the description of her halls hardly fits the idea of them presented in the Statute and so perhaps it would be best to append the bit about the judgement of Men to the Namo paragraph, and leave the Fui paragraph out entirely. |
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09-25-2017, 07:14 PM | #7 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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I agree with Arcus that this chapter is really good. The description of the tress is some beautiful writing. I also think skipping the chapters in VT-EX-01 makes sense with the revisions you made to Chapter 1. I have a few small comments/questions. It seems like you use "Kementari" for most of the text but occasionally use "Yavanna", i.e.:
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Sorry if I missed this discussion, but do you plan on keeping references to the children of the Valar? ("And the children of Manwe and Varda are Fionwe Uiron their son, and Ilmare their daughter."). The idea of Valar procreating and having children is strange to me. I think it makes more sense to make Eonwe (or Fionwe) and Ilmare Maiar. |
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09-25-2017, 07:59 PM | #8 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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To respond to your points:
1. Kementari is used bc in the Lost Tales text, while her proper name is Yavanna, she is referred to often as Palurien, which was a title later replaced (in supremacy at least) by Kementari. (sidenote, Palurien is a valid title for Yavanna in Quenya, and I have contemplated lobbying to keep it in, but referring to one person by three different names throughout the narrative would be toooo much haha). Tolkien loves using titles to refer to someone rather than their formal name, especially when they are of extreme importance. 2. Interesting, I cannot find it either. Findegil, are we crazy? Also i agree that the second addition doesn't add any new info, and also is somewhat awkward in tone, and I do not see the need for it. 3. We are not including the children of the Valar at all, as this idea was abandoned by Tolkien. |
09-26-2017, 01:51 PM | #9 | ||
King's Writer
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Yavanna Kementári: Consistence is nice but done to utmost it will become boring. It is not uncommon in Tolkiens works that important characters have more than one name, e.g.: Melkor/Morgoth/Baugron/Alcar; Finrod Felagund; Húrin Thalion, Beleg Cúthalion, Túrin/Agawaren/Mormegil/Turambar, Mairon/Sauron/Gorthauer/Annatar/The Necromancer to name just a few that come immediately to my mind.
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VT-EX-35.7: The ‘secretly and briefly’ visits of the Valar. I agree that as it stand this would contradict Orome blowing his horn. Sincer we are talking about an outline versus more than one full story texts, I assume we should change the outline, but as minimalistic as possible. So I suppose: Quote:
About the children of the Valar: They are removed or changed to Maiar or Valar of their own right. So both roles of Nonore and Fionwe are taken up by Eonwe. As well Orome is no longer the son of Yavanna. Respectfully Findegil |
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09-26-2017, 01:54 PM | #10 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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1. Palurien does sound really pretty to my ears, but I agree that three names is a bit too much. As long as when we first introduce her we use both names, I'm OK with using Yavanna and Kementari interchangeably.
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10-30-2017, 12:03 PM | #11 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Here is my new draft for chapter 2. I have kept most of Findegil's edit numbers, though in some cases where the edit has changed significantly, I've added a distinguishing letter; also, in cases where I've followed my own previous draft, I retain my edit numbers.
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above. Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {to be deleted} = text that should be deleted [ ] = normalised text <source > = additions with source information underlined = text inserted for grammatical reason / / = outline expansion Quote:
VT-LQ-01.5: I've changed the present tense of LQ to past to match the language of AAm. Particularly in view of the addition of "ancient" in the typescript AAm*, it must be the case that this describes the world as it was then, but not after the fall of Numenor. VT-EX-03b: Here I mix LT with AAm, chiefly in order to mention the name ‘Pelóri’, and to get the detail that Manwë’s throne is atop Taniquetil. The latter point, though, may not be needed here, since Manwe’s dwelling is described in full at the end of the chapter. I also move the detail of the world rumbling in the gloom to what I feel is a more natural place. VT-EX-03.1, -03.2: I remove a historical present here, but otherwise this is almost identical to Findegil’s version. VT-EX-04.1: Here I change the “cauldrons” to “wells” and use the updated names “Cululin” and “Silindirin”. VT-EX-04.2: Here I return to AAm, since we are using putting the descriptions of the Valar’s dwellings at the end of the chapter. The change of ‘gods’ to ‘Servants of Ilúvatar’ is from the typescript AAm* VT-EX-04.3: A change from AAm*. VT-LT-03.5: Although the description of the Valar’s mansions is saved for later, this seems the best place for these details of Valimar. VT-EX-15.5: I think this footnote should be used (as a footnote) in our version. VT-LQ-03.5: This is as in Findegil’s version; I just supply an editing number here for the switch to LQ. VT-EX-16 through -23: As in Findegil’s draft. VT-EX-24: I keep Lorien’s naming of Silpion immediately after the description of Silpion’s growth. VT-EX-25: As in Findegil’s draft. VT-EX-25.5: In Findegil’s draft, the re-ordering of the growth of the Trees means that we don’t say that Telperion’s light decreases while Laurelin is growing; but Yavanna’s speech following this assumes that it has. I’ve tried to rectify this by taking the passage in LT telling that Laurelin waned as Silpion waxed, and simply changing the name of the Tree. But because “glory” seems more apt for golden Laurelin, I’ve changed it to the “sheen” of Silpion. VT-EX-26: As in Findegil’s draft. VT-EX-26.5: Due to the order of the growth of the Trees being reversed, I’ve moved Yavanna’s naming of Laurelin to before the Valar praise her work, so that they are now praising both Trees at the same time. VT-EX-27: As in Findegil’s draft. VT-EX-28: Because the Trees have both now been named, the Valar do not request names for them. VT-EX-29: This was moved to become part of VT-EX-24 VT-EX-30: I’ve moved Yavanna’s speech here to before the narrator’s explanation of the waxing and waning of the Trees. Since the narrator’s explanation is fuller and more detailed, this arrangement seems to me to alleviate the feeling of redundancy. The best solution I could come up with for the problem here with the Trees’ order being reversed was to simply flip the names of the Trees (and the wells) in Yavanna’s speech. So now that Laurelin has just bloomed, she says that in twelve hours it will wane and Silpion will bloom again. Consequently, I also changed ‘fair tree’ to ‘golden tree’, ‘tree of gold’ to ‘tree of silver’, and ‘blaze forth’ (which seems an appropriate description for Laurelin but not Telperion) to ‘shine forth’. VT-EX-30.1: In LQ and AAm, the hoarding of the light that spills from the Trees is attributed to Varda. I struggled to reconcile this with Yavanna’s speech here (which we all agreed we’d like to keep). The solution I’ve come up with may not be perfect, but I think it is reasonable: Yavanna tells the Valar that the light should be gathered, and the Trees watered from it; but then it is Varda, rather than Vána and Lóriën, who bids the Maiar do so. VT-LQ-04b, VT-EX-34: I found this bit tricky, and I’m not sure I’m happy with what I’ve come up with. The point is that we have already told about the great wells and that Varda bade the light be stored and watered there, but we still want the statement that the Maiar drew from the wells and brought the light to other places in Valinor. I could not find a placement for this that is not at least a little awkward, but I think this works decently. VT-EX-36b: Here we switch back to the Ainulindalë for the final part of the chapter. In the Ainulindalë, this section begins with ‘Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only inValinor, as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn.’ In the new context the ‘thus’ has lost its antecedent, so we need some editorial alteration; I therefore took Christopher Tolkien’s alteration of this sentence from QS77. VT-EX-36.5: This is the LQ footnote telling of the making of Angband, which we agreed to use here. VT-EX-37: As in Findegil’s draft. VT-LT-04: Details of Aulë’s dwelling from LT inserted after the Ainulindalë passage describing him. VT-LT-05: Details of Manwë’s dwelling inserted after telling that it is on Taniquetil VT-LT-06: In LT, the description of Lóriën’s dwelling follows the statement that Ulmo does not live in Valinor, but in the Ainulindalë, the three who gave thought to the outer lands are spoken of in sequence: Ulmo, Yavanna, Oromë; so I have separated the description of Lóriën and placed it here. I also remove the end of this section, which describes Silindrin being in Lóriën, since in our version it is near the green mound. I’m a little uncertain about whether the old word ‘fumellar’ is valid in later Quenya, but I don’t see anything obviously wrong with it. VT-LT-07: Here I put the description of Tulkas and his dwelling. VT-LT-08b: I’ve deleted the passage that refers to Makar. VT-LT-08.5: Of the minor Ainur mentioned at this point in LT, we know that Salmar still exists in the later mythology, though Amillo/Ómar and Nielqui seem to be gone. Therefore I’ve retained the statement about Salmar, but since it is now just one sentence I’ve merged it with the previous paragraph. We could, of course, keep Ómar and Nielqui. I see that there was some discussion of Omar between Findegil and ArcusCalion, but I’m not sure if a decision was reached. VT-LT-09: The passage about Ossë. It does seem a little awkward to me to include a description of Ossë’s dwelling among those of the Valar (of course, in LT Ossë was a Vala). But even though he was downgraded to become a Maia, he is still one of the more important Maiar, so I think it’s all right. VT-LT-10: There is not much from LT to add here concerning Ulmo, but the one detail that he is a guest of Manwë while in Valinor is worth including. VT-LT-11: The LT description of the forests of Valinor seems to fit here. In LT it is said that Oromë and Palurien (there his mother) planted these forests together. I debated changing this so that the forests were planted solely by Yavanna, but in the end I think it’s fine to suppose that Oromë and Yavanna worked together to plant them, even if no longer as a form of mother-son bonding. VT-LT-11.5: The description of Oromë’s halls in Valinor seems to fit best here, after telling of his riding in Middle-earth. VT-LT-12: Here I put the dwelling of Mandos and Vairë (who is now his wife instead of Nienna, and consequently not a lady ‘of tears’). I also alter the statement about Elves being reborn to match the later conception of re-embodiment. VT-LT-13: With Nienna now the sister of Mandos, it seems reasonable to put the description of her dwelling immediately after his. Last edited by Aiwendil; 10-30-2017 at 09:13 PM. |
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10-30-2017, 11:57 PM | #12 | ||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Here are my comments for the draft proposed. Like the "Of the Beginning of Time" draft, I am very impressed at the overall improvement in flow and quality, and have some comments.
VT-EX-01b: is the addition of "ancient" really necessary? when this was written the round world numenoran cataclysm had already entered the mythos, so the ancient word was implied already. VT-LQ-01.5: I actually realize now that this contradicts the addition of the "vast regions of Ea" into the Cosmological structure with Ainulindale D and later AAm. Should this be changed from "Void and Eldest Darkness" to "Vast Spaces of Ea"? VT-EX-03.1: In this version, the "Mountains of Valinor" and just "Valinor" occur before the introduction of the name Valinor as the land of the Valar. Is this a problem? VT-LT-03.5: This is awkward. Maybe instead of changing "their" to "its" at every occurrence, just change the first "Their roofs" to "The roofs of its buildings were .." and leave the "their"s afterwards. Makes it smoother. VT-EX-30.1: Arie is said to be a Maia of Vana, so this wording cannot stay this way. Maybe Quote:
VT-LT-05: Nothing wrong with this, but in the paragraph after this addition, it says the Noldor call Varda Elbereth, but as this name is Sindarin, should tis be changed to Sindar? VT-LT-06: At the end of the paragraph, per my comment on the LQ-04b, I would add back in the description of the resting place of Silindirin. VT-LT-08b: Why remove so much of the sentence? Only the part about Makar seems unfit, the rest is pretty important. VT-LT-11.5: I would add back the description of the resting place of Culullin, see above. VT-LT-12: why remove Vę? Even if it is not his own name, there is no real reason to remove it. VT-LT-13: This last paragraph cause me and Fin a bunch of trouble, and I like the direction you took much better. However, many of my old objections still apply. Much of the Lost Tales descriptions of Nienna are entirely at odds with her later persona, and thus we need to remove or greatly edit much of this paragraph. Firstly, this: Quote:
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