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03-06-2005, 03:35 PM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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LotR -- Book 4 - Chapter 02 - The Passage of the Marshes
We continue with Frodo, Sam and Gollum’s journey; Gollum’s help as their guide is shown to be invaluable. The alternate route is described twice in contrast to the way through the Marshes – it would have been impossible to hide there. Of course, it would have been equally impossible for them to find their way through the Marshes on their own.
One of Frodo and Sam’s problems is their need for sleep vs. their mistrust of Gollum. Another thing that Sam is concerned about is the shortness of their food supplies – he is thinking of the return journey, though Frodo has little hope that there will be one. Gollum’s problem is lack of food; we find out that he does not want to/cannot eat lembas, another Elven creation that is apparently harmful to him. Any ideas why? A hungry Gollum could be a problem to the hobbits, Sam fears. The Dead Marshes are described with the lights and dead faces, and their historical background is touched upon briefly. Let’s explore that more in the discussion. I remember thinking that Gollum’s schizophrenic scene seemed overdone in the movie, but the book version is not really that much different. What I find chilling in the written account is the fact that it is not preceded by any negative actions on Sam or Frodo’s part (something we definitely need to take into account in any discussion of his redeemability), and the fact that we read of it from Sam’s point of view makes his suspicions seem well-founded indeed. His reaction is rather cunning in concealing his knowledge of Gollum’s self-dialogue. What do you make of the alternating pale and green light of Sméagol/Gollum’s eyes there? More things we can discuss: winged wraiths; the weight of the ring; the description of the wastelands near Mordor; Frodo’s dream, which leaves no recalled memory, but a lingering positive emotional memory; and the bits of poetry at the beginning of the chapter, this time recited by Gollum and partly in memory of Bilbo’s riddle adventure. (As always, this thread opens for posting early Monday morning.)
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
03-07-2005, 04:26 PM | #2 | ||||||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
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I'm sure some people will draw connections between the Dead Marshes and the despoiled landscapes of the trenches of France and Belgium in WWI. But what this chapter always brings to mind is the wide and treacherous landscapes of our own marshlands in the UK. I'm thinking of tidal land close to estuaries, bogland, and the old marshes which have now largely been drained for farmland.
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Finally, two lines I particularly like. The following line is wonderfully descriptive and gothic: Quote:
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03-07-2005, 05:14 PM | #3 | ||||||
Laconic Loreman
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Through the Smeagol/Gollum conversation we might be able to tell that it wasn't Faramir capturing him that got him to plan the hobbits' death, but he planned it from the very beginning... Quote:
I think from the previous chapter we can see that Gollum has changed, and in this chapter Frodo even notices the change, he just questions "how much" has Gollum changed? Quote:
Last edited by Boromir88; 03-07-2005 at 05:20 PM. |
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03-08-2005, 02:57 PM | #4 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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Perhaps he thought it might cause confusion, or lessen the impact of the images they did see. The reason these early ideas struck me is that there is an automatic presumption nowadays that Tolkien is writing about the experience he must have had on the battlefields of WWI, seeing the rotting corpses of the fallen in the stagnant pools of nomansland. Perhaps there was something more ‘supernatural’ intended. Yet it would have lead to confusion between the Hobbits seeing their own corpselike reflections as well as the images of the fallen from the Last Alliance in the same pools & he did try to get round this by the idea that they would see their own reflections by the light of the moon & the reflections of the fallen by the ‘corpse candles’. All of which being said, I wonder if the original idea didn’t convey more powerfully the nightmarish nature of their experiences. The Dead Marshes are not simply a place where the dead of long ago battles haunt any of the living foolish, or sufficiently driven by necessity, to enter. They are a place where death is ever present. Gollum’s ‘joke’ that if the hobbits are not careful they will themselves go down to join the dead & light little candles seems more dreadful in the ‘light’ of their seeing their own rotting faces in the water. Yet this place is almost like a waking nightmare than a physical location, because the dead aren’t really there. The whole mood is one of unreality. One knows the horrors are not ‘real’ but they are inescapable. It is like suddenly realising one is having a nightmare but is unable to make oneself awaken, fearing that one may never awaken. Yet the travellers do ‘awaken’ - to the arid blasted waste which lies before Mordor - & this awakening is worse than the nightmare. Yet, here Tokien seems to offer some ‘hope’, alomst of the kind that Sam feels on seeing the star later on: Quote:
As Frodo says to Sam on seeing the fallen head of the statue at the crossroads ‘They cannot conquer forever.’ Yet they can do irreparable harm - ‘a land defiled, diseased beyond all healing’ The scars left by evil will remain, do what men (or Hobbits) will, but those who do the evil will pass away & no longer be able to inflict their malice on the world & its inhabitants. Even in the midst of the darkness there is hope. What I find interesting though is that Tolkien seems to hide this promise among descriptions of the horror & of the hobbits reactions to it. ‘The Light shines in the darkness, & the darkness has not overcome it.’ |
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03-08-2005, 03:13 PM | #5 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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But what about the word 'slaves'? Surely a slave cannot be blamed for carrying out such work when the word implies they have been forced to do it? Maybe the phrase means then, that when Sauron is defeated, his slaves will be freed, and that the purpose with which they have carried out such tasks will no longer remain, even though the evidence of their work will remain.
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03-08-2005, 06:53 PM | #6 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
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Of course people always grasp for what they know best when reading about a location such as the Dead Marshes. So immediatly the connection to WWI is made. I however also thought of Will o'the wisps and corpse candles. To me its always been a scary place however after re-reading LOTR I didn't find them as scary because I was reminded of Mordor and that to me is one of the scariest places ever created in literature.(that I've read)
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I think the slaves are Sauron's former armies and the monument is the dead marshes. One part of this chapter that stays clearly in my mind is the nazgul flying across the marshes. It freaked me out because throughout the chapter there is a growing sense that if Frodo and Sam are discovered all will be lost.The need to hide from unfriendly eyes grows by every page thus it makes me feel extremely anxious. These feelings are very realistivplus they are a method that the author uses to keep the reader reading.
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