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#1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
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This chapter begins with the activity that results from the ending of the last chapter. The Ringwraith's appearance causes Sam and Frodo to flee and hide, while also causing the terror typical of the Nazgűl. (This is important to remember in the light of later events in the chapter.)
We see Sam overwhelmed with weariness after his adventures, and Frodo taking over the leadership for awhile. He still has some strength, though he has no hope. Is a wish a prayer? Sam wishes that he could ask Galadriel for water and light, and both are granted to them. This raises the question of the extent of her power, and that of the reach of Osanwë - could she 'hear' them, or see them in her Mirror, or was it only a coincidence? It seems to me that the parallels between Galadriel and the Catholic ideal of Mary are very obvious here, with the lembas being an additional link. Again, we get a brief connection with the parallel events on the Pelennor Fields - the narrator mentions the date and the fact that Théoden is dying at that time. Then, for the first time in the book, the cry of a flying Nazgűl inspires no terror, following the death of the Witch King. How much did that loss weaken the forces of Mordor, at least those of the Ringwraiths? We see Sam gaining hope through various incidents, but the most notable one is his moment of eucatastrophe upon seeing the star high above. So great is the impact of that experience that he sleeps with no thought of watchfulness - giving himself wholly into the hand of One greater than himself, perhaps? More and more, Frodo turns away from arms and fighting, taking off his orcish armour and giving Sting to Sam. Are his words about not striking a blow again a statement of his will, a prophetic glimpse into the future, or a manifestation of his despair? We encounter more Orcs through the eyes of our heroes, with their comparatively crude speech and their quarrels. What does the passage about the tracker and the soldier show us about them? The suspense increases when they are caught by the orc troops, though that does give us one of the book's humorous lines: "Where there's a whip, there's a will." The chapter ends with another 'coincidental' rescue, and the final sentence is a real page-turner. Even when rereading to prepare for this thread, I just had to look at the beginning of the next to make sure everything was alright... Though there is dreariness in this chapter, including the descriptions of Mordor, there is much suspense and there are glimpses of hope. What do you like best about this part of the story, and what don't you like about it?
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#2 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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This chapter, along with one to follow, is one of the most hard to read (for me). Not much 'dramatics', apart from several instances, but constant growth of pressure and creeping despair. Dark, thirst, hopelessness - the build-up is masterful. Tolkien does not have to resort to 'cheap' dramatic effects to make it obvious Mordor is dreadful place. On that background the few intrusions of hope are cut out clearer:
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Snaga/Big Ork encounter is relief of sorts. Indeed, it adds up to the tension, showing how hot on Frodo and Sam's tracks pursuit was, but it breaks up the dreadful loneliness (for me). And even orks, based on their talk and behaviour, invoke pity and sympathy - it must be wretched life with 'numbers reported' and constant fear of treachery. Further, ork-driven march it is even more depressing, and the tension is almost unbearable, with a risk of being discovered every minute, but again, it may make one feel symphaty for orks who are, maybe, unwilling to serve in the war, but are driven to it with whips 'Coincidental' rescue indeed, and the commas are rigthful, Esty. Tolkien never let slip the minor details - this is another instance of Evil bringing ruin upon itself, in all its actions, major or insignificant. Indeed, have the 'logistics' been more 'humane' in Mordor, or orks less 'self-oriented' (not pushing to get first, but letting each other in), Frodo would have been discovered. The theme of Sauron's 'selfish blindness' repeated on minor scale in his servants. Hobbits escape through 'lack of charity' in Mordor.
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#3 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
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The line about the star (the tail end of which is now my siggy for the chapter) is one of my favorites.
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#4 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Or is the Light of the star also protecting him? Is it a 'sign' that for that moment, Sam does not need to keep watch. Sam does not need to be troubled with 'fate' at this point; it is as though fate or who/what ever deals out 'fate' is watching him benevolently and he knows it. This is an intensely spiritual moment, almost in an Eastern 'mystic' sense. In this chapter we have yet more clues about what the Nazgul do. Quote:
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#5 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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It seems that Sam has taken over as main character in the story. From now on we will see things through his eyes - which we mostly have done for a good while. We now see Frodo from the ‘outside’, watching his inexorable destruction through the eyes of his servant. Its an interesting approach. We get Sam’s feelings & reactions, his inner dialogue, but not Frodo’s - we only see him & hear his words....except at one point:
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For Sam, on the other hand, there is one sign of hope after another. He gets his wish for light & water, he sees the star which inspires him, gives him perspective. Yet it is odd that it is Sam, not Frodo (who is most in need of it) who is the recipient of all these signs of hope. Frodo is now ‘plodding along’ without hope, & it is down to Sam to provide not just the practical necessities of food & water, but also the inspiration. Sam, for whatever reason, simply will not give up this ‘stupid’, ‘futile’, job. It is as though someone - Gandalf?, Galadriel?, Eru? - has realised that the burden borne by Frodo is too great, that nothing more can be added to the weight he carries - not even hope - because hope itself may be a burden. Where there is hope of success there is also fear of failure, of having that hope snatched away & trampled into the dust. Frodo plods along for the sake of plodding. Sam goes on with hope, because he can still bear the weight of it. He also goes on in faith - but whether that faith is in Eru (probably not) or simply in Galadriel, & to a lesser extent in his master, is another question, & not really relevant at this point. Frodo is fighting against ‘powers & principalities, Sam against the environment, against hunger & thirst, against Orcs & Gollum. We have yet another ‘crossing’ of a border into another ‘realm’ - in the earlier parts of the tale these were river crossings the Brandywine, the Bruinen, the Anduin, & here too we have the crossing of a dried up stream. These are points of transition almost, from one level of ‘reality’ to another. This is the final one - all the rest will be crossings back & ‘out’. Further & further in the Hobbits move, to the very centre of earthly power - not Barad dur, but Orodruin, the Sammath Naur, where the Fire wells up from the heart of the earth, the place of creation (of the Ring) & destruction, the place where the Quest was born & where it will reach its culmination, where the ‘light shines in the darkness’, where evil waits to provide its own destruction, to consume itself, & liberate the slaves in its thrall. The water & light that Sam ‘prays’ for, the star that shines through the cloud & smoke, all demonstrate that even in the heart of hell the Good may be found, that nowhere is completely closed off from hope (except, perhaps, the heart of Frodo the Hobbit). |
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#6 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
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An interesting theory, I'd never thought of it like that before.
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#7 | |||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Yes, I know the first part of my post regarding the Ring’s insight abilities contradicts the last…but it is more fun this way.
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#8 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Davem wrote:
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Some interesting points have been raised regarding the possibility of the Ring "knowing" what would happen at Mt. Doom. But it seems to me that knowing is not something the Ring can do. The Ring has will (part of Sauron's will) but I don't think it has a mind. I don't think it has knowledge or intelligence. It seems to me that it does not think about what actions to take; it does not, strictly speaking, decide. Rather, it operates on an intuitive level. It seems to me, then, that the Ring is indeed drawn to Mt. Doom; but I don't see this in terms of a decision to return to Mt. Doom - I don't think it makes sense to ask what the Ring thinks about Mt. Doom. Rather, it seems to me that it is drawn to Orodruin because of the power of that place and because of its inherent affinity with the mountain. It was, after all, the place where the Ring was made. |
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#9 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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I think this still leave open the question of whether it is Frodo's will or the Ring's which motivates him to carry on without hope. If he has no hope what is he going on for? Shippey claims that it is Frodo's will to 'do the right thing' even without hope, but the more I think about it the more I wonder. At the very least we seem to have Frodo & the Ring willing the same thing - to get the Ring to the Fire. But is that what Sauron is willing? Where does Frodo's will end & the Ring's begin?
Sam's will is also to get the Ring to the Fire, but is that for the same reason as Frodo? By this time does Frodo actually want to destroy it? Has Frodo's will already been subsumed by the Ring? |
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#10 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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Perhaps it behooves us to recall that the Ring is the servant not so much of Sauron but of the story, and that it will "know," "inspire", "intuit" what is needed for the story to reach its eucatastrophic climax and denouement rather than 'obey' any internal consistency of characterisation. ![]()
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#11 | ||
Regenerating Ringkeeper
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Holland
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hey everyone (Esty, it has been too long)
![]() After reading this thread I think that it was the Ring that drove Frodo at last. For all the reasons said above: - Frodo constantly saw a Wheel of Fire in his head. He could not picture anything else anymore. - We know Frodo claimed the Ring at the abyss of Mount Doom. I think that Frodo would already have claimed it before, had the occassion occured before. Because Frodo could and had to keep the Ring he had no need to claim it. Also, perhaps, Frodo knew that claiming the Ring would bring danger. Quote:
It is interesting to ponder why Sam gets all the hope and not Frodo. It is, I believe, because Frodo already has something that will direct him further, however horrific, the Ring wants him to keep going. Sam needs all the sings he can get to keep up his hope. Sam is the main character in 'the Land of Shadow', because it is not Frodo, but he who decides the Ring's faith. If he lost hope, what hope would there have been that the Ring was destroyed. There is one quote that contradicts all things said above: Quote:
What do you make of this? greetings, lathspell
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'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.' |
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#12 | |||||||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
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Like HerenIstarion, this chapter isnt the easiest for me to get through. Its a transition chapter in between two action chapters for me. It does have some of my favorite lines of the work:
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#13 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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#14 | ||
Dead Serious
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There's getting to be a lot of mention about the star passage, and it's effect on Sam, so I'll add my thoughts to the mix:
One thing that is noted a lot about this episode is that it is SAM who receives it, and not Frodo. Somehow, to me that has always felt fitting, since it is Sam who has been concerned about their fate, not Frodo. I always tend to think back to this passage in "The Passage of the Dead Marshes": Quote:
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#15 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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#16 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#17 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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#18 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Picking up a "vibe" is definitely not the same thing as hearing - and understanding - the contents of words that are spoken in one's presence! Methinks the Ring is being given more credit than behoves its actual abilities. Intuitive, yes; influential, yes; but not nearly as much an active participant in events as some have assumed.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#19 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
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And before everyone gets all carried away, I think another little bit of wisdom from that incident might help here. Quote:
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#20 | |
Regenerating Ringkeeper
Join Date: Mar 2002
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However, this brings another question to my mind. If the Ring felt the presence of Gandalf, than he might have felt te presence of Galadriel. The next question is: what about the phial of Galadriel? Does the Ring sence that her power is still with them? If so, what would that do to the Ring's will?
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'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.' |
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#21 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Just thinking about Sam's Ring fantasy - if it was his own rather than an idea created by the Ring to tempt him, does this shed a new light on this 'humble servant', the simple gardener? Has Sam this whole other aspect to his character? What does this tell us not only about him, but about Hobbit society generally. Sam, it seems, is not someone who simply accepts his place in society unthinkingly. He has concieved of himself, on some level (whether or not he was fully conscious of it) as a leader, a commander.
In the end he does become a 'leader' - he becomes Mayor of the Shire. But he is elected, given that position by others, rather than taking it for himself. This reminds me of what happens to Gandalf. He rejects the power to be gained by claiming the Ring & as a result he is sent back by Eru after his death in Moria with enhanced power, but this is also power conferred on him, rather than power taken by him. It seems that those who claim power they do not deserve (Saruman, Sauron &, let's face it, Frodo) fall & are broken, left powerless, while those who refuse the temptation to claim power & dominion end up in possession of it. |
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#22 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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#23 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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I'm reluctant to think that the Ring has any 'draw' towards Mordor, or even any 'urge' to leave one person and find another Bearer. Why? Because I think that the losing and finding of the Ring is more to do with Fate, and less to do with the Ring itself choosing somebody; surely if the Ring can 'choose' then it might have chosen more suitable bearers for its own purposes? And in addition to this, I think that to give the Ring more sentience might risk demeaning the efforts of those who do bear or reject it.
I think it is simply an incredibly powerful object but without sentience. What I think it does work upon is the boundary between the Fea and the Hroa, as seen in the visions that Frodo has of the Nazgul, Sam's heightened senses on the Pass of Cirith Ungol, Gollum and Bilbo's unnaturally long lives. And it does possess an incredible innate power which Sauron has built in to it during its forging. One of the ways it works davem has already touched upon, and it is something I have noticed too; there is a possibility that the Ring's 'forces' exert a pull on the person's desires. Galadriel is possibly the best example of this, as she expresses her lust for power and control when offered the Ring. But it is interesting that the Ringbearers do not necessarily express such power hungry desires. Gollum seems to want to use it to sneak around and survive as an outsider, Bilbo uses to avoid neighbours he does not wish to talk to, and Sam uses it to hide from enemies. That Sam's idea of having power is only fleeting is quite telling. It seems that those who do not bear the Ring have more desire for power and control than those who do. I think that one of the ways the Ring works is nothing to do with the Ring at all, it is simply the reputation of the object. This is shown in the reactions of Boromir and Faramir; the former is absolutely fascinated by it, like someone who stands by a big red button marked 'do not touch', he cannot resist. His brother takes an opposite reaction in that he vehemently states that he'd have nothing to do with it. To Bilbo, the Ring was almost just a handy gadget, and as far as we can see, he did not become power crazed by possessing it; he did not want to give it up, but he did do so. It clearly had a physiological effect on him by giving him unnatural life, and that I think is where the first real danger of the Ring lies, in that it physically harms people due to the way it works on the body (I wonder how this would work on a non-mortal?). The second danger is that it clearly does possess powers which would be harmful in the hands of anyone who did not truly understand it (and that would include Gandalf and Galadriel who though powerful still would not know everything about how it worked). The third danger is simply that Sauron wants it back and will do anything to get it. Who would want to be in possession of that if the Nazgul were out on the hunt for it? And going back again for a moment to how the Ring works on desires, it may well have this power, though it is something that those on the side of 'Light' may never fully understand. It has been forged by Sauron who is a rebel and rejects Eru's 'plan'; presumably the 'forces' which he has put into the Ring during its forging are the forces which Sauron alone would understand and appreciate. It is likely that 'desire' would be one of those forces or urges. I think that the 'draw' of the Nazgul to the Ring is more to do with the Nazgul themselves rather than the Ring; they exist in a shadowy dimension of some description, being bodiless and owners of Rings themselves. Being in that shadowy existence, they may be able to sense something which is akin to those powers. Frodo's sense of having a burden may be linked to the sheer psychological weight of carrying this object which has such a dark meaning and significance to Middle-earth and its fate. He senses this weight outside Mordor too. Once within the borders of Mordor, and closer to both Sauron and to the place where it was forged, the powers innate in the Ring may very well have become stronger, but I don't think it was sentiently urging the Bearer towards Mount Doom. It's another way of looking at it, and I admit I'm as in the dark as anyone and these are just ideas, but all the same, this 'urge' we have as readers to explain the Ring seems just as powerful as the forces of the Ring itself.
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