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#1 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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Revised and Expanded Edition of the Letters
Apparently 150 letters had been cut from the first edition of Tolkien's Letters. Now to be included in a new revised edition.
available for pre-order through the various national Amazons. to be released January 23, 2024. http://https://www.tolkienguide.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=49265&fbclid=IwAR0NAaV_O1CC_ x-hi8Ho11We-6EEd2OM9kgyhbEI5v4gMLabugy1RyPPDrI
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#2 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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I have always wondered about the efficiency of the postal service in the Shire. Evidently, there were quite a few slowcoach hobbits delivering the mail.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#3 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,352
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Thanks for the heads up, Bethberry!
This is actually quite intriguing. Letters is a fascinating combination of (1) correspondence to Tolkien's fans and critics regarding his writings including many fascinating nuggets of insight, and (2) correspondence to family and friends tending towards the personal, some providing glimpses of his life and personality and others revealing what could be characterized as the drudgery (as well as the benefits) of academia. The first category includes material regarding the process of drafting his works, musings on the underpinnings, philosophical as well as his inspirations, of Middle Earth. Regarding the latter, I wish I had a dollar for every time Tolkien apologized for being late about anything. It will be interesting to see an additional 150 letters, though I worry about why they were excluded when the first edition was published. I suspect all here will forgive me if I am a bit skeptical when I hear about "new" materials by Tolkien being published considering what has been released since HoME 12.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#4 |
Dead Serious
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I share Mithadan's scepticism about the real value of the expansion--this is very late going in the publication of Tolkien's original works, and I fully expect that anything "new" is going to be on the order of the nuggets in The Nature of Middle-earth.
But I was still glad to get The Nature of Middle-earth, and a fuller Letters (or a supplement, or a volume II) has been something I've wanted since about 2000, when I read the original volume for the first time and realised they hadn't published them ALL. So I'm excited, but in a very realistic way--I know I'll be spending 40 or 50 dollars on a hardcover with three-to-five minorly interesting tidbits in it.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#5 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Apparently this version with 500 letters is the original edition Carpenter and CRT prepared. But Unwins thought it was too long to have a hope of breaking even, so they insisted it be curt down in size. So, in one way, there's nothing "new." Call it the Director's Cut.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#6 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 332
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Wait, wasn't it supposed to come out in November this year?
Also, what does the "vision for publishing his 'Tales of the Three Ages'" mean exactly?
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#7 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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Quote:
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#8 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Dec 2023
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 4
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In his Letter 131 (late 1951) addressed to Milton Waldman, Tolkien once again identified the beginning of the First Age with the Awakening of the Elves. There's the quote: "The History of the Eldar (Englished as ‘Elves’, but the pre-Shakespearian sense is intended), or Silmarillion proper. Nexus of legends, and stories in chronological order, into which some major tales are woven. Contains the ‘history’ of the First Age, from the coming of the Eldar to its end with overthrow of Morgoth-melkor, the first Dark Lord. Called The Silmarillion, because most of the history and tales are grouped about or refer to the Three Great Jewels of Fëanor (the Silmarils), their making, theft, the war for their recovery, and their final loss." Now that's finally well established that the First Age began with the Awakening, not the first sunrise.
Last edited by Ar-Zigűr; 12-24-2023 at 06:34 AM. |
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#9 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
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Well this menopausal woman has just got the expanded letters for Christmas. Since I am home alone with the cats and am not obliged to do unspeakable things to poultry, I shall spend the day reading them.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#10 | ||||||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,856
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I also got the NuLetters for Christmas, and wanted to take a look at the letter mentioned in the article Bethberry linked. I don't think the article gives the number, but it's 38a.
What seems to have happened is that Michael Tolkien's regiment had moved, and Michael had written to his girlfriend "A." (not his future wife, who he would meet the next year) to tell her of the move. She had passed the news on to her family, who (living near the Tolkiens) had mentioned it to them - before they heard it from Michael. Edith then wrote to Michael; JRRT wasn't privy to what she said, but Michael's reply a) was clearly a grovelling apology, and b) mentioned that Edith had been very negative about his relationship with A. It seems Michael also felt his father disapproved of A., though this may be from previous contact between them. So JRRT is writing to smooth things over and try to restore what he thinks should be proper family relations. The review is right that JRRT doesn't come over that well in 38a. His comments on why his son might feel a bit peeved at him range between self-righteous and the classic "oh haha I was only joking": Quote:
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His advice on romance is probably fine, though I doubt "either of you might change so don't count on it lasting" sank in. And then we come to his comments on Edith, which are indeed pretty bad. The general commentary on mothers is eeeesh: Quote:
![]() Then we come to the passage that formed the centre of the article, and... basically... it's fine? Quote:
Does it still come across a bit condescending? In light of the previous passage about women's lack of introspection, yes. But all the parts about how Michael needs to forgive and forget are not Edith being "blatantly objectified, and perhaps even infantilised" - they're JRRT trying to keep his son from holding a grudge after Edith bit his head off. And it's not all negative: Quote:
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#11 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,358
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Iiiinteresting. Thank you for posting, Hui.
My first impression is indeed that the first part of the letter sounds worse than the second, as you say. And still to me the main (or perhaps only?) problematic assertion is with regards to introspection. This conclusion stuck to me as so odd, I did a little experiment. I asked several people in my acquaintance whether they thought men or women were more introspective. And interestingly, if I could persuade people to come out of the non-committal "it's equal, gender doesn't matter, etc" zone and share their actual thoughts... Males usually thought men are more inteospective, while females thought women were. What a conundrum. A case of better-than-average effect?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#12 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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I've been waiting to reply until I receive the "Nuletters" (a Christmas gift ordered that apparently has not yet been delivered) so I thank Huinesoron for responding after reading the letter.
I will respond more fully once I receive the book but for now let me correct a slight error. Quote:
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'tis late tonight but perhaps I can return tomorrow to address some other points in the posts here before I see the letter myself. I posted the link because I thought it might encourage discussion. Good to see that it has!
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#13 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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Well, I'm back. And have the NuLetters in hand. (I like that spelling very much, thanks hS
In rereading the comments here, I find it striking that the initial and possibly major points made relate not to the topic of the blog post but to the tone of the author. She is allegedly some sort of shrew who has an axe to grind against cis men of another time, almost a feminazi. My initial response of "really?" still holds up. It's like attacking the messenger rather than the message, or, in the old rhetorical nomenclature, ad hominem attack, although in this case it isn't against the man. Larsen is sharp, yes, but hardly antagonistic to Tolkien; her point is not to, as she says, pillory him for not being modern or progressive. In fact, as she makes clear in the first paragraph, she is interested in showing how some current views of him as "being ahead of his time" are misplaced; she is more interested in seeing how he relates to his own time, and what those values may or may not be. So she is putting her reading of the nuletter to Michael in the context of critical commentary on Tolkien. If you don't like the word Larsen uses, "cringeworthy", then think embarassing or awkward. Yes, he was a man of his time. Accept him for that. The nuletter (number 38a) is clearly about family relations and should be read also in the context of the very long letter 43 where Tolkien offers fatherly advice about marriage as companions in a shipwreck. (As an aside, Michael's loves in question in the two letters are different women, A in the first and Joan Griffiths in the second, who he would go on to marry.) The difficulty appears to have been that Edith wrote a letter to Michael after his girlfriend's parent informed the Tolkiens where Michael, then currently in training for the war, had been reposted. This apparently was an embarrassment, that others had been informed before the parents, and Tolkien is writing to Michael how to handle the situation. Of course we don't have Edith's letter to read, so we don't know what she wrote, and we don't have Michael's letter to Tolkien to see what prompted letter 38a. It is quite difficult, after decades, to try to decipher family relationships. However, it appears that Tolkien is trying to excuse Edith for what she wrote, or provide reasons for her comments. Did Tolkien speak with Edith about this situation? It does not appear so. In any case, what we have are Tolkien's thoughts about his wife in mid life. They are patronising and infantalising. Tolkien spends more time using Edith's lack of attendance to the Catholic faith (which he demanded she convert to despite the fact that the Church herself did not require partners to become Catholic (only to bring up children in the Catholic faith); here Tolkien gives no sign of introspection (I used that word in particular) about how the loss of her own personal faith in the Anglican church may have left Edith lonely and in a strange land--certainly she found confession to a strange man awkward), and then this bit about "women's economy" and menopause. He spends time surmising how women feel about other women who are attractive to their sons, despite saying later in the letter that Edith is quite "reconciled" to the relationship. His thoughts are entirely consistent with common cis men's patronising attitudes towards women at the time; they display very little introspection or sympathy for what Edith might have been feeling and instead offers social/cultural cliches. What Tolkien does not express is any idea how Edith might be very concerned about her son because he is in military service during wartime and whose very life could be at risk. (Michael was in fact injured during a training exercise.) And how it felt to have other people report about him concerning something he had not told his parents. Larsen provides six--yes, six--references to studies on menopause, so she isn't talking hot air, or merely her opinion, or post modern revisionist complaints about men in earlier times. Larsen is a scientist, and evidence, true evidence and research, are both her bread and butter and her MO in her scientific research and in her articles on Tolkien. To demonstrate her respect for Tolkien, here is her article on the aurora in the Father Christmas Letters, "Rayed Arcs and the ‘Rory Bory Aylis’: Primary World Aurorae and Tolkien’s 'Father Christmas Letters'": http://https://scholar.valpo.edu/journaloftolkienresearch/vol18/iss1/5/ Suffice to say I think many of the claims made here about her blog are misguided attacks on her rather than on what she shows Tolkien thought about his wife at mid life. Like me, she is a big fan of Tolkien, but that does not mean that either of us engage in idealising a favourite author. Authors are human and have feet of clay. EDIT: Haven't had time to do a thorough reading of the NuLetters. It is a very handsome hardcover, approximately 50,000 words more than what the original had been reduced to, with 150 new letters and 45 of the original letters newly expanded, a hefty book. When I have time I will do a quick search for letter numbers that have been appended a letter after the original number, as in 38a with the letter in question. Particularly welcome is the new and expanded Index by Wayne G Hammond and Christina Scull (best known for their JRR Tolkien companion and Guide as well as their Reader's Guide to LotR). Mithadan had asked about reviews of the new edition: an extended one with particular details can be found at Tolkien Collectors' Guide: http://https://www.tolkienguide.com/...forumpost52679
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 01-25-2024 at 08:18 AM. |
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