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Old 01-20-2005, 06:40 PM   #1
Estelyn Telcontar
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Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Silmaril LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 08 - The Road to Isengard

Light and victory begin this chapter, and it wraps up the happenings with the awakened forest. We see the victors handling their enemies differently - the orcs are destroyed, the men of Dunland spared and set to work.

Gimli's description of the Glittering Caves gives yet another glimpse of his eye for beauty and the Dwarven ideals. His friendship with Legolas is shown in their promise to accompany each other to the sights that each one of them feels most important.

The horrible change to the valley of Isengard is described - first through Saruman's corruption of it, then through the destruction by the Ents.

And last, but most certainly not least, the travellers meet Merry and Pippin (again)! The conversations and their actions are so typically hobbitish, giving a welcome touch of comic relief to the serious situation. I enjoy them tremendously at every rereading.

Which part of this chapter is your favorite? Which descriptions of landscapes affect you? Which characters do you enjoy most?

(Thread will open on Sunday/Monday, January 30 - 31)
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Old 01-30-2005, 09:02 PM   #2
Mister Underhill
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Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
The Road to Isengard is now open.
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Old 01-30-2005, 11:10 PM   #3
Lathriel
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One of my favourite parts in this chapter is Gimli's description of the glittering caves. I can picture them so well and the description is so accurate it becomes real.
In this chapter you also get the feeling that the friendship between Legolas and Gimli is rapidly growing. Especially when they promise to eachother that Legolas will see the glittering caves and Gimli will see Fangorn forest. Both of them are more willing not only to face eachothers differences but to accept them. They no longer hold onto their prejudices as before but are willing to see Fangorn forest or the glittering caves and to form their own opinion.
Also the reunion between the hobbits and Legolas and Gimli makes me feel very happy. Most of the book has been pretty dark so far and it is nice to read about a victory and friends seeing eachother again.
I always thought the Huorns were neat. Despite the fact that they helped to clean up the orcs I thought they were creepy when I first read the book. (and still do)Also because you don't know what they are untill Legolas,Gimli, and Aragorn hear merry and Pippin's story.
This little technique that Tolkien uses of keeping a reader in the dark for as long as possible keeps me reading and re-reading LOTR.It keeps me from getting bored with the book. (Plus of course the wealth of detail)
Overall this chapter has a feeling of transition for me. You can simply feel that fortune might be turning to the heros' favour despite all odds. This chapter always gave me a feeling of hope. The battle Helm's Deep is won and as I've said before friends reunite. I think Merry and Pippin's speech is so typically hobbitish that I have to smile every time as I read it.
Whatever happens Hobbits are still able to stay so optimistic it makes me wish I had that same talent.
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Old 01-31-2005, 11:04 AM   #4
Aiwendil
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For me the most striking part of this chapter is the long description of Isengard - the section beginning "Beneath the mountain's arm within the Wizard's Vale . . ." As unremarkable as these paragraphs may seem when compared with such scenes as the battle of Helm's Deep, I think that this description exemplifies certain aspects of Tolkien's writing style and ability.

First, there is the mere fact that this account is placed here. Up to this point the narrative in this chapter has followed our heros as they deal with loose ends from the battle and start on the journey toward Orthanc. If I had been writing this chapter, I probably would stayed with these viewpoint characters exclusively, describing Isengard as they come to it, from their perspective. Now of course that's because I don't have anything remotely like Tolkien's grasp of the technique of story-telling - but after all, it does seem like the more natural thing to do, and I'd guess that few writers, even good ones, would think to break away from that viewpoint and move to, as it were, a higher perspective, to give a more distant and objective description of Isengard before proceeding.

Yet this is something Tolkien does quite often. It happens constantly in the Silmarillion - many transitions are effected by "Now it must be told . . ." or "Now the tale turns to . . ." and very often we are pulled out of our perspective in time and space with references to events that occur later on and far away. This happens less in LotR, but it still happens. Most often we are only briefly taken out of viewpoint, but the passage in this chapter is not unique. Another notable one that occurs to me at the moment is an account of Shelob toward the end of book IV.

These passages make the narrative voice of LotR the so-called "omniscient narrator". I think that this is an important point to note when one considers Tolkien in relation to other modern authors. I would say that most current fantasy writers (and indeed most current commercial authors) tend to use the "third person limited" voice, in which, though the prose is still in third person, each scene is told the perspective of one of the characters in that scene.

I would go so far as to say that this is one of the ways in which modern fantasy fails when compared with Tolkien. For - and I admit that this is speculative - I think that there is something about the fairy-story as a genre that lends itself to the omniscient narrator. I'm not entirely sure why this is. In part, it may be that the omniscient narrator, in a manner of speaking, is capable of lifting the story up out of the mundane and making it bigger than the individual perspectives within it. That is certainly something that happens in this instance; in a way the shift in perspective is very cinematic. It's as though we follow the characters with close shots and shots from their perspective as they move toward Isengard; then when they finally approach it, the camera jumps to a high wide shot of the whole area. In a movie this would have the effect of opening up the story, making it feel big or expansive - and I think it is the same effect that Tolkien achieves here.

Perhaps a more mundane reason that this omniscient viewpoint is effective is simply that it allows the narrator to more effectively communicate information to the audience. In a limited perspective (and most of all in first person) the author must contrive it that all the information the reader needs to know must be accessible to the narrator. If this chapter were told strictly from the perspective of the main characters, it would take quite a while for the reader to grasp the layout of Isengard, as the characters slowly approached it and entered it. The omniscient voice allows Tolkien to simply tell us what we need to know.

That's a somewhat long analysis of a fairly short passage, but I think that Tolkien's narrative voice is an interesting and under-discussed subject.
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Old 01-31-2005, 02:00 PM   #5
Lalwendë
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
There was another interesting narrative point which I noticed as I read of the discussion between Theoden and Gandalf. It almost seemed as if in this conversation Tolkien was 'stepping out of the text' to tell us something about the nature of the story, where we have been, and what we are about to face, yet he does this via two of the characters. He also seems to be telling us something of the nature and history of myth and folklore. Taking the conversation bit by bit, several thoughts struck me as interesting:

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"They are the shepherds of the trees," answered Gandalf. "Is it so long since you listened to tales by the fireside? There are children in your land who, out of the twisted threads of story, could pick the answer to your question. You have seen Ents, O King, Ents of Fangorn Forest, which in your tongue you call the Entwood. Did you think that the name was given only in idle fancy? Nay, Theoden, it is otherwise: to them you are but the passing tale; all the years from Eorl the Young to Theoden the Old are of little count to them; and all the deeds of your house but a small matter."
Here we have Gandalf/Tolkien telling us about the nature and the origins of story-telling, 'tales by the fireside', and finding an answer hidden within many threads and plot twists. Gandalf/Tolkien also tells us how names are not merely plucked from thin air but are carefully chosen to reflect the nature of things in this story. He also lets us know that in comparison to this story, we are comparatively small, we are just a 'small matter' in contrast to the great deeds here related to us.

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The king was silent. 'Ents!" he said at length. 'Out of the shadows of legend I begin a little to understand the marvel of the trees, I think. I have lived to see strange days. Long we have tended our beasts and our fields, built our houses, wrought our tools, or ridden away to help in the wars of Minas Tirith. And that we called the life of Men, the way of the world. We cared little for what lay beyond the borders of our land. Songs we have that tell of these things, but we are forgetting them, teaching them only to children, as a careless custom. And now the songs have come down among us out of strange places, and walk visible under the Sun."
And now we have Tolkien writing of how we have suddenly been confronted with these weird and wonderful tales, stories we know so well that we can tell them to children, but that as adults we have 'forgotten' that they could have a basis in fact, that they really could be true. We are concerned, like the Rohirrim, with our daily lives, yet these stories and these other realities exists on the very borders of our lives, and when we finally hear such tales we are transfixed.

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'You should be glad, Theoden King," said Gandalf. "For not only the little life of Men is now endangered, but the life also of those things which you have deemed the matter of legend. You are not without allies, even if you know them not."
This seems to be Tolkien telling us that these ancient tales (and maybe other ancient things) are actually in danger of being lost, and yet we should be careful as they are valuable to us, as valuable as allies.

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'Yet also I should be sad," said Theoden 'for however the fortune of war shall go, may it not so end that much that was fair and wonderful shall pass forever out of Middle-earth?"
Theoden's response reflects our own feelings, that despite what we may do, many of the 'old tales' will inevitably be lost. And perhaps the fact that some will invariably be lost should make us particularly careful with those that we still have? Also, here Tolkien seems to some up much of what we have already read about, the loss of the Elves and the decline of the Ents, aspects of the life in Middle Earth that will inevitably be lost to some extent as the story concludes.

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"It may," said Gandalf. "The evil of Sauron cannot be wholly cured, nor made as if it had not been. But to such days we are doomed. Let us now go on with the journey we have begun!"
Finally the voice of Gandalf/Tolkien tells us that the evils of the world will never be wholly eradicated, in both our world and in Middle Earth, and that this is our 'doom' which we must accept before we can continue, both in our own lives and within the story. A great battle has taken place and much of Middle Earth has been turned upside down, we must here take a breath and take stock, in the middle of the story, before we can carry on.
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Old 01-31-2005, 02:53 PM   #6
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davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
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Even as he spoke, there came forward out of the trees three strange shapes. As tall as trolls they were, twelve feet or more in height; their strong bodies, stout as young trees, seemed to be clad with raiment or with hide of close-fitting grey and brown. Their limbs were long, and their hands had many fingers; their hair was stiff, and their beards grey-green as moss. They gazed out with solemn eyes, but they were not looking at the riders: their eyes were bent northwards. Suddenly they lifted their long hands to their mouths, and sent forth ringing calls, clear as notes of a horn, but more musical and various.
The calls were answered; and turning again, the riders saw other creatures of the same kind approaching, striding through the grass. They came swiftly from the North, walking like wading herons in their gait, but not in their speed; for their legs in their long paces beat quicker than the heron's wings. The riders cried aloud in wonder, and some set their hands upon their sword-hilts.
'You need no weapons," said Gandalf. "These are but herdsmen. They are not enemies, indeed they are not concerned with us at all."
So it seemed to be; for as he spoke the tall creatures, without a glance at the riders, strode into the wood and vanished.
We encounter here beings with their own agenda, beings who 'reck little' of the affairs of men, of their wars & struggles. Yes, men have their own stories, of which the Ents may know something, but at this time they are not concerned with those stories. The Ents & their Huorns have not come to save the people of Rohan, but to bring about the utimate destruction of Saruman. Two battles have been fought at Helm's deep, two battles against the forces of Saruman - they just happen to have co-incided at this time & place - or is it that simple?. The Ents have their own concerns & as far as these men are concerned they 'look & pass'. As Treebeard has said, he is not altogether on anyone's side, because nobody is altogether on his side.

There has been a battle of men against monsters, against the 'darkness' personified, but there has been another battle, a mythical battle of the trees & the forces which seek to wipe them from the earth. Its as if these two battles eched each other, or perhaps its the same battle taking place on two planes - the mundane & the supernatural - simultaneously.

What is strange though is that these two battles are fought against the same enemy - as if Saruman himself is fighting both a natural & a supernatural battle - as if he seeks a victory on the supernatural as well as the natural plane. We seem have another example of the 'two worlds' which Tolkien says the Elves inhabit. No victory achieved in only one of those worlds will suffice. Its almost as if Saruman has had to fight on two fronts & suffered a defeat in both.

WE learn a lot about Saruman in this chapter. We learn his true desire, & all his clever philosophising in his talk with Gandalf is exposed. He wants to be Sauron:

Quote:
But Saruman had slowly shaped it to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived--for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dur, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength.
He has studied his enemy too closely for too long, until the experience has become like staring into a mirror. He looks at Sauron & sees himself magnified. He looked upon Isengard & could in the end only see that it wasn't yet Barad Dur. He looked at himself & in the end could only see that he wasn't yet Sauron. He has made himself into a pathetic copy of another, one greater than himself. All his talk of 'breaking' & 'overwriting' is shown up for what it is - he doesn't desire to be himself, he desires to be someone else. 'What does it profit a man if he gain the entire world & yet lose himself?'

Well, it doesn't profit Saruman at all. He loses everything in the end, because he fails in his attempt to gain the world, or rather the worlds, as well as sacrificing himself to his own desires. He ends not with the Ring, but with 'blood' on his hands, & that 'blood' is not just that of the people of Rohan, it is also his own. He has sacrificed himself in an act of spiritual suicide. He has taken his own life, 'killed' himself, in his desire to be someone else - Sauron.
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