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10-04-2004, 03:30 AM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 04 - A Journey in the Dark
As the previous chapter ended in defeat, this one begins with the decision whether to accept that defeat or to rise to the challenge of a new (the only remaining) possibility. Frodo shows his strength in deciding to go on. It’s interesting that Gandalf stresses the reason for entering Moria, not only because the other choices are too risky or take too much time, but because their attempt at Caradhras exposed them and they must now “vanish from sight for awhile”.
Aragorn shows his gift of foresight in warning Gandalf of the personal danger facing him in Moria. Before they disappear, they are attacked by Wargs; warding them off makes Gandalf’s presence even more visible – interesting that he always exposes himself when he must use his Maian powers, as fire is his element. (That’s another reason it’s probably good that he didn’t go on with Frodo – would he have been able to restrain himself to remain secret?) After that, we have another weather change to their disadvantage – is there actually a purposeful mind behind that, or is it a coincidence that is only felt to be personal malice to them? I find it significant that we are shown that Gandalf is not omniscient – he is uncertain of the way to the Gates of Moria, does not know the password, and later falters when he must choose the way through the caverns. Another much-discussed enigma is presented in this chapter – the Watcher in the Water. Is it a single or multiple entity? More interesting is the question of its arousal – was it already triggered when the Fellowship waded through the water, or was it Boromir’s stone that angered it? Sam shows heroism in saving Frodo at this point. In Moria, we are given some insights into Dwarven culture, both in the Dwarrowdelf excavation and in Gimli’s poem. We are introduced to mithril, and in finding Balin’s grave, the chapter ends with yet another defeat, that of the last Dwarven attempt at retaking Moria. That’s a wealth of material to discuss!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
10-04-2004, 08:04 AM | #2 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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But is it that simple? These 'wargs' are neither wolves nor hounds. they are supernatural beings, which seem at first to be real creatures, not illusions - we could expect Gandalf at least to know an illusion, yet he seems as convinced as the others that they are facing a real physical threat. But his words are interesting - 'Hound of Sauron'. Are these creatures that Sauron has sent, magically created to attack the Fellowship & then disappear when their task is done? In British folklore there is the Wild Hunt: Quote:
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Yet, in their Middle earth context, how can they be explained - 'real', physical 'wargs' which disappear in the morning light - like the blade of the Morgul Knife? Are we again dealing with two worlds? Do these 'Hounds of Sauron' exist, like the Ringwraiths, in the OtherWorld, & like them are able, with Sauron's will, to pass from that world into this one in order to do Sauron's will, & then return back whence they came? Once again, one is struck by the sense that the War of the Ring is not simply a war between good & evil in this world, but a war being fought by the forces of two worlds, or 'dimensions'. A few other points - CT gives us a translation of Gandalf's opening spell: 'Elvish gate open now for us; doorway of the Dwarf-folk listen to the word of my tongue.' He also quotes Tolkien (if memory serves) as saying that he didn't want the incident of the entrance to Moria to resemble the account of trying to gain entrance to the Lonely Mountain in the Hobbit, yet in some ways it definitely does. Gandalf's instruction, once in the mines, to 'Follow my Staff', did cause Biblical echoes to spring to mind for me - Thy Rod & thy staff they comfort me. We also have him handing out to each of his followers the flask containing the magical/mystical/supernatural liqour Miruvor, & spending a night sitting in meditation, while all his companions sleep, & we know he goes on to face death & resurrection, involving a descent into the Underworld. One does have to wonder whether this is one of the 'Catholic' themes which were 'consciously' placed in the revision. Finally, on a personal note, the drawing of the Doors of Moria struck me forcibly, because a couple of weeks back in Oxford I saw the original manuscript page. The detail was amazing - as was that on the original paintings for the Hobbit - if anyone thought that the originals were large size & had been substantially reduced for the book - they weren't. If you have a copy of TH with Tolkien's colour plates, take another look at them, because he painted them, with all that detail, effectively at the size you see them in the hardback. |
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10-04-2004, 01:02 PM | #3 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Davem, I like the point you have made about the wolves. Here is a little more...
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10-04-2004, 02:51 PM | #4 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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There are three chief underground adventures in LotR, of which this is the first (the others being Shelob's lair and the Paths of the Dead). What occurred to me on re-reading this chapter is that all three of these subterranean journeys have rather explicit associations with death and rebirth - three times we go down into the Underworld. Traditionally, of course, the hero dies (literally or metaphorically), travels to the Underworld, and later emerges and returns to life (sometimes going to the Underworld means literally going to the place where the dead abide, sometimes it means, say, being encased in carbonite in Jabba's dungeon). But in our LotR examples, who is it that "dies"?
The answer, though perhaps obvious, is interesting. In Moria, it is clearly Gandalf who dies. In Shelob's lair it is Frodo - who does not literally die, but is poisoned and mistaken for dead. In the Paths of the Dead, it is Aragorn, whose "death" is not biological at all, but is more like Odysseus's or Aeneas's. Now it has often been remarked that Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo are the three heroes of the book. I think it's interesting that this view holds up so well - we even find that each of the heroes has his own journey into the Underworld. I suspect also that those three journeys each reflect the nature of the relevant character, though how they might do so is not immediately obvious to me, and I don't have time to ponder it at the moment. It's an interesting triple parallel to think about, though. Davem wrote: Quote:
I have always guessed that they were like the "werewolves" of the Silmarillion - demonic spirits (Maiar perhaps?) in wolvish bodies. Remember that Sauron always had an affinity with these creatures - he was once the master of Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves; he even took wolf form for his battle with Huan. |
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10-04-2004, 04:03 PM | #5 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
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In reference to comments above about Gandalf's fallibility in this chapter and
the wolves possibly being Maiar, it's interesting how Maiar have far more direct influence on Middle-earth history then Valar: Melian, Gandalf, and Radagast, and on a somewhat less positive side Sauron, Saruman, and Balrogs. Any intervention by Valar are, even when significant, like Ulmo with Tuor, fleeting, presumably because of the overwhelming influence they would exert otherwise (as Melkor did when he insisted on prolonged interaction with Middle-earth). It was the (relative) weakness of Sauron vis-a-vis Melkor, further diluted by his putting much of his power into the Ring, that made resistance feasible against him. And while the Istari Quote:
even Melian had clear restrictions on power and knowledge (not even knowing of events in Valinor after she left). Gandalf does generally act, even as Gandalf the White, largely as an adviser (and without even once whacking any Gondorian with his staff ). That he has to reveal his powers at times (Caradhras, the wolves, the Balrog, shows just how desperate events had become, partially because of the betrayal of their mission by Saruman.
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10-04-2004, 04:20 PM | #6 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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Aiwendil wrote:
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wolves looking for meat, they were most likely from Sauron. |
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05-04-2008, 11:39 AM | #7 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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I apologize for taking some time, but this is a long chapter and I had lots of other things to do lately. But now, let us take a closer look at this particular chapter.
It maps the journey from the feet of Caradhras to the Gates and then inside, almost all the way through Moria (although the whole chapter after this one is devoted to Moria as well). If I start from the end, then it's worth mentioning that the Fellowship was probably very lucky this time. "It was good that the Company had such a guide", indeed, since the three roads choice they went pretty straight and fast. Just imagine what maze must have Moria been! I really like the way Khazad-Dum is depicted, and how its current emptiness and darkness (ah! The chapter title is really appropriate) is put into contrast with Gimli's poem. Mentioning chapter title, one thing I realised this time that I did not notice before, although now thinking of it it seems pretty important and maybe very important and seemingly intentional (I would like to know if others noticed it or if they did not, like me): Gandalf keeps talking all the time (since the chapter before) about "another dark road", which is slowly building a tension, and when it finally comes to that, this is repeated as well (at night!), and when we really come to Moria, we see it's indeed dark - and all of it corresponds with the chapter title. I honestly confess I never thought that Gandalf's hints about dark paths may have any connection with the chapter title. Do you think they do? Because the word "dark" or "darkness" seems to have a prominent role in this chapter, and helps to make its atmosphere. I should also point out one impressive thing about this chapter: there are whole two illustrations (if you can call it that) in this chapter, which you don't have anywhere else in LotR (unless you count the Ring script). Of course you can have plenty of illustrations in LotR, but these I would think are in any edition of LotR, are they? And they are "original": the Gate (quite impressive, I was never able to read half of it, but I always liked to check the depiction with the description - and I was seriously impressed when I found out that the treebranches' ends are supposed to be moons) and Balin's tombstone. Quite nice, isn't it? Was the Prof in "drawing mood" when writing this particular chapter? Apparently he was Balin's tomb and the whole scene is moving anyway, and the last words of the chapter still move me when I read it. Although I found out I have to reflect it always to actually realise the dead Balin is THE Balin, the wonderful good fella from the Hobbit! How sad! Before it, we learn briefly about the history of the Dwarves and mithril, and we hear (or are reminded of) some "Durin's Bane" - now one has to wonder, what kind of a horror will that be, and will the Company be forced to face it? Another thing I noticed this time was that the Dwarves have another secret word for mithril in their own (secret) language. I wonder what may that be, don't you as well? Now to the beginning of the chapter again: I see the strange Wolves whose bodies disappear (but there are all the arrows that hit them!) were discussed at length here, so whoever is interested, I forward him to what was said here. Only for myself I could say that it's really odd, until last year - and it's really right about a year ago now - I didn't actually realise the wolves disappeared. Or I didn't mind. I thought "well they were probably wargs, and clever ones, and for some reason they took their dead away" - when I even thought about it. And Gandalf's words "these were no ordinary wolves" I interpretated just that way: they were not wolves, but Wargs, clever ones, and sent here on purpose, which is supported by the fact that they took away their dead. Only the radio play of LotR I heard last year made me realise what's actually written in the books, as the play contained added words of Gandalf: "They were not common wolves - they were beasts created by Sauron's sorcery!" And I, being very catchy when it comes to canonicity, said: "What the heck?" And then looking into the book, I at last realised this interpretation is quite plausible. And last, but not least: Quote:
So what do you think about this chapter? Anything to add? Anything you remember? Anything that had strong impact on you? Or anything you consider dull?
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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05-05-2008, 05:47 AM | #8 | |
Shade of Carn Dūm
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1. Gandalf was at full power, defying the Balrog, and to Gandalf was its attention drawn instead of to the Ring. 2. The Balrog was higher or equal in rank with Sauron by Morgoth's old standards. Why would the Balrog be enticed by a lowly creation of a lesser Maia in the Second Age? The Balrog was far older than the Ring. 3. The Balrog was a servant of Morgoth, not a seeker of personal power which the Ring could provide. Unlike dragons or Sauron, Balrogs seem more docile (!!) and obedient. 4. The Balrog was obedient to Morgoth, not Sauron, and would not serve him. It is interesting to note that Frodo has no compulsion towards the Ring this entire chapter (by my memory). |
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05-05-2008, 06:55 AM | #9 | |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Not that it means he is any more powerful, maybe just more cunning. We do know, however, that at the very least taht Gothmog (the Balrog) was. Whether the Balrog in Moria was or wasn't could be open to debate.
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05-05-2008, 09:03 AM | #10 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
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Concerning Sauron and the Balrogs, Tolkien (in L144) says,
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That, however, is really more relevant to chapters to come, I think. About the illustrations in this chapter: I find it interesting that this still survived as the chapter with the most illustrations, since there were still more that Tolkien had lovingly and painstakingly drawn that were omitted from it. The pages he made from the Book of Mazarbul (complete with damage from fire and water) were intended to be included in this chapter, but were left out, much to his disappointment. I've seen them, and I can understand his feelings. A lot of work went into their making, and they would have been more fascinating to look at than the inscription on Balin's tomb. Constraints of budget, alas.
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. John Stewart Mill |
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08-21-2018, 03:09 PM | #11 |
Dead Serious
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Too much HoME in my blood has me fascinated that, with the end of this chapter, we basically reach the first great pause in the composition of The Lord of the Rings, and the book that resumed later from this point is a lot closer to the finished product than what we had before, which means--at least to a slight extent--that I read the adventures up to the end of this chapter slightly differently than I do those after. Yes, the Wargs after Caradhras are deeper and more serious than the wolves of The Hobbit, but the story still feels a bit more episodic and Hobbit-sequel-esque than the story after Moria.
In a very real sense, to play off an earlier post, not only do the heroes undergo a symbolic (or real, in the case of Gandalf) death when entering underground passages, but the book itself does. By the way, I wonder if part of what got Tolkien going again was the realisation that Gandalf needed to die here--and, eventually, be reborn. Gandalf up to this point has not be the deus ex machina-prone wizard of The Hobbit, but a far more fallible figure: he fails to arrive before Frodo sets out, and that absence haunted the book till Rivendell. Even once we know what Gandalf faced, he is not the same force of "adult" knowledge in this book as in its predecessor. Thorin would never had contended so consistently with Gandalf over a path of travel as Aragorn does here, though he was far more likely to disagree to disagree with the wizard. The disagreement between Gandalf and Aragorn was actually the biggest element that stuck with me this reread, if only because Aragorn is always portrayed prior to leaving Rivendell as Gandalf's great friend and helper--and prior rereads had made predominant in my mind the overall deference that Aragorn shows Gandalf, especially as Gandalf the White. And Aragorn is still respectful here, but he definitely disagrees. I love Moria--I tend to love every new kingdom Tolkien introduces along the road, from Bree through Gondor, but having been elsewhere encountering some childhood memories associated with The Hobbit, I've been thinking about the comparisons between Moria and the Lonely Mountain, and there's almost no comparison: Moria a far richer, more deeply visualised place, and the comparative richness of its description as compared with the Lonely Mountain's simpler exploration in The Hobbit is appropriate. It is one of the crimes of Peter Jackson's Hobbit trilogy that it transgressed my mental pictures of things by making Erebor even vaster and more impressive than Moria.
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