The Capital of Cardolan

[Rhugga II]

This question mostly has to do with MERP. I am trying to figure out if the standard MERP line is that Thalion is the capital of Cardolan or Tyrn Gorthad? I'm talking pre-1356 TA.

[Inziladun]

MERP=Middle-earth Role Playing?

[narfforc]

Tyrn Gorthad is the Sindarin name for The Barrow Downs, during the wars with Angmar, The Dunedain of Cardolan took refuge there, and it is thought that the barrow in which the hobbits were captured, was in fact that of the last prince of that realm. Thalion is the epithet of Hurin. Fornost was the second capital of Arnor, and in 861 TA the realm of Arnor was split in three. Arthedain, Rhudaur and Cardolan. Fornost remained in Arthedain, the capitals of the other two were never listed, however there are references to Amon Sul being in Cardolan, and both Bilbo and Frodo saw stone walls and crumbling towers in the area that was once Rhudaur.

[Rhugga II]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

MERP=Middle-earth Role Playing?

Yes.

[Gordis]

I would guess the capital of Cardolan was either Tharbad (the biggest and the oldest city in Cardolan) or the fortress on the Barrow-Downs, whatever its name may have been:

They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all.

[Rhugga II]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I would guess the capital of Cardolan was either Tharbad (the biggest and the oldest city in Cardolan) or the fortress on the Barrow-Downs, whatever its name may have been:

I think this is the best one may conjecture from the books alone. However, I am curious if there are MERPers lurking on the forum who would want to discuss issues of the North Kingdom(s) prior to and during the Great Northern War in 1356 (although in MERP its 1352-1359).

[Rumil]

or indeed the occurrence of parachuting hippos.

(sorrry, so very sorry)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I would guess the capital of Cardolan was either Tharbad (the biggest and the oldest city in Cardolan) or the fortress on the Barrow-Downs, whatever its name may have been:

I think Tharbad was more likely than the Downs, as it doesn't appear that there were any structures at Tyrn Gorthad, except the barrows. Frodo and Co. failed to mention seeing any evidence of a ruined fortress.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think Tharbad was more likely than the Downs, as it doesn't appear that there were any structures at Tyrn Gorthad, except the barrows. Frodo and Co. failed to mention seeing any evidence of a ruined fortress.

As it says in the Tale of Years, the Dunedain took Tyrn Gorthad seriously enough to defend it in 1409 of the Third Age. But there is no very specific mention of structures there. But Tom Bombadil seems to also have some memories of the Dunedain there, beyond them being simply buried there...

[Dúgorin]

Well it doesn't seem so unusual that capitals are on the very edge of the land they are part of, consider Belfalas, Dol Amroth is on the coast & Lebennin, seemingly Pelargir is the capital (I don't think this has been confirmed), Ithilien's capital is Minas Ithil, and Isengard, was possibly the capital of Calenardhon, or even Enedwaith, and it is right on the edge, so it wouldn't be that unusual of Tharbad to be the capital of Cardolan, though the difference between it and the examples I listed is obviously that Cardolan is it's own Realm rather than a province, but presumably Cardolan used to be a province, or areas of a province so it being the capital may be just a continuation of it being the capital of whatever came before. Any thoughts?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Dúgorin

Any thoughts?

Capitals are on the edge of the land not because it's a country or a province, but because it could mean that the location is logical for trade/control/etc. They have a strategical location. Sometimes it means making them closer to a river or the sea to have a port and have control over transportation, those leaving/entering/going past the city, collecting taxes from merchants, and so on and so forth. Though it's not necessarily near water, it's just usually in the center of things, wherever the center is. There's a reason they say that all roads lead to Rome.

(Mark here that of the cities you mentioned, Dol Amroth is a sea port and Pelargir a river port, Minas Ithil stands at a crossroad, and Isengard is at a point that "divides" east, west, and south. Tharbad could be a possibility because it's the only ford in the area and controls pasage across the river, not because it's on the edge)

However, I've heard of capitals that were deliberately put more inland for defensive purposes (eg I heard one of the reason's for Canada's illogical choice of capital - Ottawa (at that time just a small town) over larger cities like Montreal - was to reduce the damage of a possible attack from the States, due to it being less accessible and a bit farther from the border).

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Tharbad could be a possibility because it's the only ford in the area and controls pasage across the river, not because it's on the edge).

Tharbad was also the navigable head of the Greyflood (Gwathlo in Sindarin, earlier Gwathir "shadowy river from the fens"). The river was broad and deep enough that ships could be sailed or rowed that far inland. Beyond that were the fens. Heads of navigation on rivers are another cause for large towns to grow up - of which Tharbad was one.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Tharbad was also the navigable head of the Greyflood (Gwathlo in Sindarin, earlier Gwathir "shadowy river from the fens"). The river was broad and deep enough that ships could be sailed or rowed that far inland. Beyond that were the fens. Heads of navigation on rivers are another cause for large towns to grow up - of which Tharbad was one.

... as was Osgiliath in Gondor. The Anduin wasn't passable to ocean-going ships much past that point due to the Falls of Rauros. As for Cardolan, there is really no other city in that defined realm that could be considered a 'capital' unless you consider the seaport of old Vinyalondë / Lond Daer. Where else would a 'capital be for Cardolan?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

... as was Osgiliath in Gondor. The Anduin wasn't passable to ocean-going ships much past that point due to the Falls of Rauros. As for Cardolan, there is really no other city in that defined realm that could be considered a 'capital' unless you consider the seaport of old Vinyalondë / Lond Daer. Where else would a 'capital be for Cardolan?

I now wonder if the splinter realms of Cardolan and Rhudaur were organised enough to even have a formal capital. Were the Dúnedain in those realms numerous enough to need one, or did the majority of them stay loyal to Arthedain? Where would Rhudaur's have been?

The only major places of habitation in the North Kingdom of which the reader is told were Annúminas and Fornost, and both were within the bounds of Arthedain. If the self-styled lords of Cardolan and Rhudaur had felt the need for a center of government, why couldn't they have made do with a castle or fortress somewhere? There needn't have been a large city or town around it.

[Dúgorin]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Tharbad could be a possibility because it's the only ford in the area and controls pasage across the river, not because it's on the edge)

Yer, I wasn't saying that it could be the capital BECAUSE it was on the edge, I was saying that the fact that it's on the edge doesn't mean that it CAN'T be the capital, as some of the earlier posts mentioned that because it is on the edge it is an odd location for a capital.

[lindil]

excellent thread folks - we have so little data about the north compared to Gondor...

Curiously no one has mentioned the town a few miles from the barrow Downs BREE!





However - it seems clear that the dunedain never populated or seriously encroached on it - leaving the non-numenorean/hobbit population to it's own devices.

Why the burial mounds would be next door to Bree? Perhaps the mounds were erected after a particularly devastating battle. Easier [less rotting - to put it bluntly] to build tombs than move them down road hundreds of miles, seems one possible answer.

re: Tharbad as Cardolanian chief city and final public outpost of the Dunedain.

The Dunedain were very much preservers, as far as they could, and Tharbad had been established as an early 'crossroads', never thought about the math that puts it's final abandonment to bilbo's 21st year - excellent data point.

It would have had ancient buildings, close[r] contact both with Gondor, Rohan and even the more civilized Dunlendings and was probably 'The City' for all the wild lands surrounding it - even maybe for the Druedain fisherfolk on the coast , so it almost certainly was the chief city if not outright [if such things needed to be formalized] 'capital'. By Bilbo's day it would have been the ONLY Numenorean inhabited City/Town in the North that was not secret.

There is no doubt a direct relation between the waning Tharbad and the [upstream by 150 miles or so] 'Hidden Fastness' of the remaining Dunedain of the North at the Angle of the Loudwater and Hoarwell Rivers - and the Fell Winter's abandonment of Tharbad due to decimation of an already dwindling population. Tharbad still would have been monitored by the rangers just as sarn ford was and bree as an obvious entry into Eriador.


One can imagine the despair and sorrow the Dundeain of the North would have felt no longer even having a post office for Gondor to leave a message at [since they clearly did not know where Imladris was] though the Ringwraiths did as they abandoned their last decaying outpost and town and retreated upriver to a private village close on exactly 1/2 way between rivendell and Tharbad. Since it was in Rhudaur, the hidden fastness was quite possibly nothing more than a ranger/refugee camp grown permanent. maybe becoming the barrows for the Re-United Kingdom...

In light of this one sees how provincial even Butterbur had become, forgetting what must have been know 2 or 3 generations before that the Rangers guarded the North, and had some kind of direct Authority in Tharbad - which must have been known as 'the city to the south'.

Some of Aragorns scorn could then be credited to his bitterness that Mordor was known to Butterbur but he 'did not know' where rangers hailed from, though surely his grandfather would have had some idea.

[BGreg]

Originally Posted by lindil

The Dunedain were very much preservers, as far as they could, and Tharbad had been established as an early 'crossroads', never thought about the math that puts it's final abandonment to bilbo's 21st year - excellent data point.

It would have had ancient buildings, close[r] contact both with Gondor, Rohan and even the more civilized Dunlendings and was probably 'The City' for all the wild lands surrounding it - even maybe for the Druedain fisherfolk on the coast , so it almost certainly was the chief city if not outright [if such things needed to be formalized] 'capital'. By Bilbo's day it would have been the ONLY Numenorean inhabited City/Town in the North that was not secret.

I don't think that Tharbad was populated by Numenoreans anymore by the time of Fell Winter. They probably all died centuries ago, and were replaced by Dunlendings. How did that happen? Their bloodline was mixed with the blood of the lesser Men, and slowly turned them into 'ordinary' Men, completely oblivious of their descent. Unlike in Gondor, which was well populated, here the Numenoreans would have very little contact with strangers or other Dunedain, and would have been forced to breed with lesser Men to survive. So after centuries of life in fear, they would have consisted primarily of Dunlending Men.
So, the last remnants of Tharbad were actually only abandoned by those Dunlendings, who then went south in pursuit of a happier life, safe from cold winters of the North.