Weak-willed Aragorn of the Wandering Eye - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalaith · 01-20-2003, 06:44 AM

There has been much anguished debate over the transformation of the character of Faramir in TTT. But I'm surprised how little fuss there has been about the fundamental changes to the character of Aragorn. In Peter Jackson's FOTR Elrond says of Aragorn "he has chosen exile" as if he were Disney's Simba the Lion King. This has nothing to do with Tolkien's Aragorn, who was merely waiting for the right moment to seize his destiny. But in TTT, he is diminished further, regarding his relations with Eowyn. I have read in numerous places that the PJ version of the Aragorn/Eowyn/Arwen love triangle is "much like it is in the book." No it isn't. Look at what it says about their first meeting in Tolkien's text. "...as he took the cup, his hand met hers, and he knew that she trembled at the touch...."Hail Lady of Rohan" he answered, but his face was now troubled and he did not smile." The Peter Jackson Aragorn is not so sensitive or honourable. He leads Eowyn on and flirts with her. (Or as my husband put it, who saw the film but has never read Tolkien:'Why is he chatting her up, he's supposed to be in love with the other one.' ) Incidently, Miranda Otto is beautiful and a good actress but I wasn't too happy about the transformation of the proud icy shieldmaiden Eowyn into a giggling Meg Ryanish girlie, either.

Elven-Maiden · 01-20-2003, 09:38 AM

I'm actually listening to The Lion King soundtrack right now!By "He has chosen exile", they do not mean that he was banished, like Simba. It simply means that he chooses to not be in Gondor. In exile refers to any place that is not your own. When Frodo and co. met the Elves in the Shire and was made Elf-Friend, they also said that they were in exile, meaning not in Rivendell. They weren't naughty, they were just not at home.

dunadan_aragorn · 01-20-2003, 11:22 AM

Exactly! I couldn't agree with you more! Aragorn is now some flirty fru-fru guy! (Although he is still really awesome!)

Thingol1000 · 01-20-2003, 11:58 AM

"When Frodo and co. met the Elves in the Shire and was made Elf-Friend, they also said that they were in exile, meaning not in Rivendell."errr... No. My take on that was that they were of the Nolder. i.e. exiled from Valanor.

Lalaith · 01-20-2003, 12:35 PM

Yes, no-one is disputing that Aragorn was in exile. But in Peter Jackson's Lotr, he has "chosen" exile. This isn't just Elrond saying it - it is one of the major themes in the film, and emphasised further in the extended edition. The Peter Jackson Aragorn is reluctant to accept who he is, and it is only Boromir's death that finally makes him agree to go to Gondor and claim his heritage. Tolkien's Aragorn unequivocally announced his rights as Isildur's heir at the Council of Elrond.

Diamond18 · 01-20-2003, 04:18 PM

I was pleasantly surprised at how honerable Aragorn was toward Éowyn in the movie. Leading up to that point we all were expecting a lot worse. Just look at the pre-TTT threads discussing the possibility of kissing and bed scenes between them, etc.Aragorn seemed very polite and respectful towards her. So he talked to her...oooooh, big deal. He was grim and silent when she asked him about the jewel he was wearing. Maybe I'm just so relieved that they didn't have a fling that I overlooked some meaningful flirting, but I think you're overreacting. I was expecting some real tension and stuff. All the googly eyes seemed to be on Éowyn's part, though, and all Aragorn had to do was be there, or maybe speak some kind words, to attract her. Does a man have to be rude and icy toward every woman he isn't in love with? And who do they show him dreaming about and thinking about constantly? Arwen.As to the exile thing, that's been talked about at length, as well.

Lalaith · 01-20-2003, 04:27 PM

Diamond, I wasn't aware of the fact that there were rumoured kisses and bedscenes...good grief. If I had heard those rumours I too might be relieved at what was actually on screen. But while I quite agree that men can be nice to women they're not in love with, I don't think I'm overreacting. Like I said, my husband who has no knowledge of the books assumed that he was flirting with her - in fact he thought he had instigated the flirting. Tolkien Aragorn was sensitive and thoughtful, and realised straight away what had happened, that Eowyn had fallen in love with him. Peter Jackson Aragorn seems rather dumb - careless with Eowyn's feelings and the consequences of his actions. Any minute I was expecting him to say "my elf doesn't understand me."Re exile, yes I'm sure it has been discussed although I wasn't around for that. I just mentioned it to point out that Aragorn's character has been somewhat trashed in both films.[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

Diamond18 · 01-20-2003, 04:54 PM

There was one three page thread that got deleted after a while because it deteriorated into a long running commentary on morality in Hollywood and the world in general. But I found <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001245&p=" TARGET=_blank>this other one</A> which gives a slight taste of the mood circulating. Odd though, my posts look so carefree and flippant. I remember being more concerned than that.You said you were surprised about the lack of talk about Aragorn's weakness, though, so I took that to mean you didn't think it'd been discussed before.

mollecon · 01-20-2003, 05:14 PM

Link to Aragorn in TTT thread:<A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001455" TARGET=_blank>web page</A>As I said before, the movie Aragorn is in many ways more interesting (& convincing!) than the book one...[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: mollecon ]

Lalaith · 01-20-2003, 05:17 PM

Sorry Diamond, I wasn't being very clear. I meant I hadn't seen much discussion on Aragorn's weakness regarding Eowyn in TTT. The FotR weaknesses I suspected had been discussed. Oh, and thanks for the link mollecon.[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ]

Lalaith · 01-21-2003, 04:06 AM

I just wanted to add that the changes made to Aragorn are I think symptomatic of the changes PJ makes to too many of the characters. He seems convinced that weak, flawed characters = interesting, strong, principled or driven characters = boring. That's why Faramir was altered, that's why Theoden carried on whinging even after Gandalf had brought him out of dotage, that's why Frodo seems more like a junkie on cold turkey than the brave hobbit we know from the books. I don't buy this. Book Aragorn is a sick of being a 'only a ranger'. He is incredibly driven, just burning to claim his kingship and heritage, and of course the right to marry Arwen. He also learns valuable lessons about leadership in the course of the narrative. Why is that not interesting?

Vorrothiel · 01-21-2003, 04:53 AM

I think Aragorn is only being nice to Eòwyn, and I think that he doesn't flirt with her. His thoughts is with Arwen all a long...

Diamond18 · 01-21-2003, 10:33 AM

Here is a good thread (not many replies, but some interesting ones) about the weakness of Aragorn and others in the movies, and TTT especially:<A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001505" TARGET=_blank>The Weakness of Men...and Hobbits</A>

Lalaith · 01-21-2003, 10:51 AM

Thanks Diamond. You're right, there are some excellent and thoughtful posts on that thread. I am with Mr Platypus, in the main - I think the whole obsession with 'character development' is a bit childish and Movie-Making 101. Tolkien broke every rule in publishing with LOTR, but he proved the 'how to write a bestselling book' experts wrong, didn't he. I wish PJ had done the same to the Blockbuster Rulebook. The films are great, yes, but they could have been *really* great.

Gorwingel · 01-21-2003, 01:42 PM

Maybe looking over a cup of wine and slightly smiling does not translate well on to screen. (the audience would not understand that there is a slight attraction between the two) There must have been a reason to make these changes to the charaters, (though, some of the changes I even agree were totally unecessary) Let's not get too wild over the changes to Aragorn's charater, those changes were much more mild compared to Faramir and Frodo. If I made a film about LOTR, I would probably make choices that a lot of people on this site would not agree with. It is like you could have 20 people read a peice of writng and they could have 20 different opinions, it is all about personal viewpoint. ok

01-20-2003, 06:44 AM	#1
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Weak-willed Aragorn of the Wandering Eye There has been much anguished debate over the transformation of the character of Faramir in TTT. <BR>But I'm surprised how little fuss there has been about the fundamental changes to the character of Aragorn. In Peter Jackson's FOTR Elrond says of Aragorn "he has chosen exile" as if he were Disney's Simba the Lion King. This has nothing to do with Tolkien's Aragorn, who was merely waiting for the right moment to seize his destiny. <BR>But in TTT, he is diminished further, regarding his relations with Eowyn. I have read in numerous places that the PJ version of the Aragorn/Eowyn/Arwen love triangle is "much like it is in the book."<BR>No it isn't. Look at what it says about their first meeting in Tolkien's text. <BR>"...as he took the cup, his hand met hers, and he knew that she trembled at the touch...."Hail Lady of Rohan" he answered, but his face was now troubled and he did not smile."<BR>The Peter Jackson Aragorn is not so sensitive or honourable. He leads Eowyn on and flirts with her. <BR>(Or as my husband put it, who saw the film but has never read Tolkien:'Why is he chatting her up, he's supposed to be in love with the other one.' )<BR>Incidently, Miranda Otto is beautiful and a good actress but I wasn't too happy about the transformation of the proud icy shieldmaiden Eowyn into a giggling Meg Ryanish girlie, either. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-20-2003, 09:38 AM	#2
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	I'm actually listening to The Lion King soundtrack right now!<P>By "He has chosen exile", they do not mean that he was banished, like Simba. It simply means that he chooses to not be in Gondor. In exile refers to any place that is not your own. When Frodo and co. met the Elves in the Shire and was made Elf-Friend, they also said that they were in exile, meaning not in Rivendell. They weren't naughty, they were just not at home. __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

01-20-2003, 11:22 AM	#3
dunadan_aragorn Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the bowels of Moria Posts: 105	Exactly! I couldn't agree with you more! Aragorn is now some flirty fru-fru guy! (Although he is still really awesome!) __________________ Allia Octa Est, The Die is Cast -Julius Ceaser

01-20-2003, 11:58 AM	#4
Thingol1000 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 37	"When Frodo and co. met the Elves in the Shire and was made Elf-Friend, they also said that they were in exile, meaning not in Rivendell."<P>errr...<BR>No. My take on that was that they were of the Nolder. i.e. exiled from Valanor.

01-20-2003, 12:35 PM	#5
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Yes, no-one is disputing that Aragorn was in exile. But in Peter Jackson's Lotr, he has "chosen" exile. This isn't just Elrond saying it - it is one of the major themes in the film, and emphasised further in the extended edition. <BR> The Peter Jackson Aragorn is reluctant to accept who he is, and it is only Boromir's death that finally makes him agree to go to Gondor and claim his heritage. Tolkien's Aragorn unequivocally announced his rights as Isildur's heir at the Council of Elrond. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-20-2003, 04:18 PM	#6
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	I was pleasantly surprised at how honerable Aragorn was toward Éowyn in the movie. Leading up to that point we all were expecting a lot worse. Just look at the pre-TTT threads discussing the possibility of kissing and bed scenes between them, etc.<P>Aragorn seemed very polite and respectful towards her. So he talked to her...oooooh, big deal. He was grim and silent when she asked him about the jewel he was wearing. Maybe I'm just so relieved that they didn't have a fling that I overlooked some meaningful flirting, but I think you're overreacting. I was expecting some real tension and stuff. All the googly eyes seemed to be on Éowyn's part, though, and all Aragorn had to do was be there, or maybe speak some kind words, to attract her. Does a man have to be rude and icy toward every woman he isn't in love with? And who do they show him dreaming about and thinking about constantly? Arwen.<P>As to the exile thing, that's been talked about at length, as well. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-20-2003, 04:27 PM	#7
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Diamond, I wasn't aware of the fact that there were rumoured kisses and bedscenes...good grief. If I had heard those rumours I too might be relieved at what was actually on screen. <BR>But while I quite agree that men can be nice to women they're not in love with, I don't think I'm overreacting. Like I said, my husband who has no knowledge of the books assumed that he was flirting with her - in fact he thought he had instigated the flirting. Tolkien Aragorn was sensitive and thoughtful, and realised straight away what had happened, that Eowyn had fallen in love with him. Peter Jackson Aragorn seems rather dumb - careless with Eowyn's feelings and the consequences of his actions. Any minute I was expecting him to say "my elf doesn't understand me."<P>Re exile, yes I'm sure it has been discussed although I wasn't around for that. I just mentioned it to point out that Aragorn's character has been somewhat trashed in both films.<p>[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ] __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-20-2003, 04:54 PM	#8
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	There was one three page thread that got deleted after a while because it deteriorated into a long running commentary on morality in Hollywood and the world in general. But I found <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001245&p=" TARGET=_blank>this other one</A> which gives a slight taste of the mood circulating. Odd though, my posts look so carefree and flippant. I remember being more concerned than that.<P>You said you were surprised about the lack of talk about Aragorn's weakness, though, so I took that to mean you didn't think it'd been discussed before. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-20-2003, 05:14 PM	#9
mollecon Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 188	Link to Aragorn in TTT thread:<P><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001455" TARGET=_blank>web page</A><P>As I said before, the movie Aragorn is in many ways more interesting (& convincing!) than the book one...<p>[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: mollecon ]

01-20-2003, 05:17 PM	#10
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Sorry Diamond, I wasn't being very clear. I meant I hadn't seen much discussion on Aragorn's weakness regarding Eowyn in TTT. The FotR weaknesses I suspected had been discussed.<BR>Oh, and thanks for the link mollecon.<p>[ January 20, 2003: Message edited by: Lalaith ] __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-21-2003, 04:06 AM	#11
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	I just wanted to add that the changes made to Aragorn are I think symptomatic of the changes PJ makes to too many of the characters. <BR>He seems convinced that weak, flawed characters = interesting, strong, principled or driven characters = boring. That's why Faramir was altered, that's why Theoden carried on whinging even after Gandalf had brought him out of dotage, that's why Frodo seems more like a junkie on cold turkey than the brave hobbit we know from the books. <P>I don't buy this. Book Aragorn is a sick of being a 'only a ranger'. He is incredibly driven, just burning to claim his kingship and heritage, and of course the right to marry Arwen. He also learns valuable lessons about leadership in the course of the narrative. Why is that not interesting? __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-21-2003, 04:53 AM	#12
Vorrothiel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 14	I think Aragorn is only being nice to Eòwyn, and I think that he doesn't flirt with her. His thoughts is with Arwen all a long...

01-21-2003, 10:33 AM	#13
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Here is a good thread (not many replies, but some interesting ones) about the weakness of Aragorn and others in the movies, and TTT especially:<P><A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001505" TARGET=_blank>The Weakness of Men...and Hobbits</A> __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-21-2003, 10:51 AM	#14
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Thanks Diamond. You're right, there are some excellent and thoughtful posts on that thread. I am with Mr Platypus, in the main - I think the whole obsession with 'character development' is a bit childish and Movie-Making 101.<BR>Tolkien broke every rule in publishing with LOTR, but he proved the 'how to write a bestselling book' experts wrong, didn't he. I wish PJ had done the same to the Blockbuster Rulebook. The films are great, yes, but they could have been really great. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-21-2003, 01:42 PM	#15
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	Maybe looking over a cup of wine and slightly smiling does not translate well on to screen. (the audience would not understand that there is a slight attraction between the two) There must have been a reason to make these changes to the charaters, (though, some of the changes I even agree were totally unecessary) Let's not get too wild over the changes to Aragorn's charater, those changes were much more mild compared to Faramir and Frodo. If I made a film about LOTR, I would probably make choices that a lot of people on this site would not agree with. It is like you could have 20 people read a peice of writng and they could have 20 different opinions, it is all about personal viewpoint. ok __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

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