Finished the Silmarillion, things still bother me though.

[Helkahothion]

Well, I have just finished the silmarillion, but questions linger.

The hobbits: Where do they come from? I have read in another thread that they where descendants of the humans, but then what about the pointy ears? It is really confusing me. Are they created also by the impatience of Aulë, or just something else?

Suilad,

Anuion

[lathspell]

No, I don't get this, what is your question?? You're mixing things up.

Hobbits are said to be descendants of Men or so I heard, though I never heard proof and it is only said that the Hobbits near the Gladden Fields (where Gollum was from) moved over the mountains and settled themselves there.

Pointy ears?? Those are Elves and about the very thing (pointy ears) have been several discussions if they had them.

Children of Aulë: those were the Dwarves, which Aulë made with impatience of the Firstborn. Eru made them sleep until the Firstborn awoke and forgave Aulë his mistake.

[Helkahothion]

I know my fellow dutchman, (or is it woman?) I'm just wandering where they come from. Every folk have a history. But the hobbit's do not. So I am wondering about that. I asked if they where ALSO created by Aulë, but seeing it now, that is a stupid remark. But they DO have pointy ears. Look at the movies. PJ did not get that from nothing now did he. I can't quite recall the description, but it is said that Hobbits have sharp ears and sight, so that gives air of the elves. And than there is their height.

Suilad,

Anuion

[Noxomanus]

Well,let's make the dutchmen-conversation a discussion of three. Tolkien allways wanted to have his mysteries in ME and the hobbits are one.Though they are among the key-players of the War of the Ring (together with Sauron,Aragorn,Gandalf & Saruman) they are unspoken of in the Silm and they are meant to be from as mysterious descend as they actually are.Tolkien did leave a clue in that he mentioned they are indeed a subgroup of Men.
And you shouldn't really believe everything PJ presents us with.I am under the impression he certainly isn't one of Tolkiens best attention-paying students...

[Helkahothion]

Another Dutchman? Where have you been all my life? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

It is indeed true that they are barely mentionedin the silmarillion. Another thing that bothers me, why did Ilúvatar not destroy Morgoth when he openly opposed him and went to war against the other Valar?

[Nils]

OK, I'm not Dutch, but my name is Scandinavian. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I thought this quote from Letters is relevant to the Hobbit Origins issue:

a footnote to Letter #131:
"The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not elves or Dwarves) -- ..."

[the guy who be short]

Iluvatar knew it wass going to happen. He put Morgoth on Arda to test all his children. In the end, even evil will only greaten his glory.
Well, thats how i understood it.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Is this discussion open to Brits? I could pretend I'm Dutch. Goedemorgen. Wij hebben een tijdje gepraat. So, anyway. I think Illuvatar was pretty much leaving affairs in the world to the world. Just the sort of free choice, letting fate decide sort of thing, I guess.
Hobbits, like Tom Bombadil, seem to be a mystery. They came from the three races- Fallohide, Stoors and Harfoot. They came from the sort of North East of ME I think.

[Helkahothion]

Is this discussion open to Brits? I could pretend I'm Dutch. Goedemorgen. Wij hebben een tijdje gepraat.

You don't have to be just Dutch [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]. BW would skin me if I would do that. Good dutch though. Not a single mistake.

Well that explains a bit more Lyra. Eru left the world to it's own fate. So should we see the god of the christian fate in this picture too? Is it Tolkiens religion coming trough a bit again?

Suilad,

Anuion

[Yavanna228]

Sadly, I am not Dutch either. Nor am I British, although I am a descendant of some. Anyways, to the point. There is another thread about your question, Helka, right here. Hopefully some of your questions will be answered in that thread. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Oh, by the way, congratulations on finishing the Silmarillion! Terrific book! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I'm actually re-reading it myself.
Peace

[Helkahothion]

Uber thanks [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

So in the silmarillion, which of you actualy read the chapter completly " About Beleriand"?

Suilad,

Anuion

[Yavanna228]

You're welcome [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
You mean some people don't actually read the whole thing? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] I am shocked and amazed! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Peace

[Helkahothion]

Nah, it tired me out. Only names I could not remember. I did learn from the Silm certain words. Like mountain, hill and island, being Ered, Amon and Tol [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[the guy who be short]

I always thought the Ainulindale determined the fate of everything? Everything that would happen was in the Ainulindale except for men, who alone could escape it. Therfore, everything Morgoth did was meant to be done.
This is getting rather off topic. all the poor guy wanted to know was where hobbits came from!
I'm pretty sure they were just another type of Men.

[Susan Delgado]

Nobody knows where Hobbits come from. Tolkien deliberately left them a mystery to us as well as the other people of Middle-earth to facilitate Frodo's not being known about/discovered by Sauron. They were not mentioned at all in the Silmariliion, for that reason. No one, including themselves, knows where they came from.

[Helkahothion]

This is getting rather off topic. all the poor guy wanted to know was where hobbits came from!
I'm pretty sure they were just another type of Men.

Not just that. I just wanted different things I want to know about the silm in one thread, to avoid repetition.

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Thank you, Helka, I've wondered the same thing.

As to where did Hobbits come from, I have no idea. The idea of them being a subgroup of men makes sense, but what about the fact that they seem to have certain abilities we don't? Like the moving quietly, and their lifespans. Forgive my ignorance if you have an explanation for that as well.

[ June 09, 2003: Message edited by: Tinuviel of Denton ]

[the guy who be short]

Tinuviel, they specialised. Look at the men who live in rainforests. If we citypeole got lost in a rainforest we wouldnt last a day. They know what to eat, what to avoid, what to hunt, what to avoid. I guess it was the same with hobbits, they didnt like men so they specialised a way to get away: being quiet.

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Everything that would happen was in the Ainulindale except for men, who alone could escape it. Therfore, everything Morgoth did was meant to be done.

But didn't Melkor's singing change it? Anyway, it was shrouded, if I remember correctly (?) so if Illuvatar knew, he was the only one. (Which doesn't oppose or answer your point. Damn.)

Oh, and Helka that Dutch came straight out of a book. "An introduction to Dutch". I bought it a few years ago for 25p and only know one or two words.

[lathspell]

Indeed I'm a Dutchman and no Dutchwoman, my good topic-starter!

I can live with the Hobbits, being a severe branch of Men as well. Especially after the quote given to us by Nils.

a footnote to Letter #131:
"The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not elves or Dwarves) -- ..."

It would explain a few things, after their specialization, which must have happened if they are to be of Men.
Gandalf already guessed that Gollum's family and others who lived there were akin to the Hobbits, akin to the fathers of the fathers of Stoors, as he puts it. So, can it be that the origin of the Hobbits is to be found there. That they were in a long time forgotten descendants of the Men who lived there.
it might be so, indeed their is a humoristic resemblence between Rohan and the Shire. Both of the origins as we think are lying in the North but West of the Mountains so the area will ly close together. And they are (apart from Elves and Ents) the two people with the resemblence that they just want to live in peace in the land they own, which is in both cases a land given to them.

The theory of Hobbits being a obscure branche of Men would also explain why the little people weren't in the List of the Living People in which dear old Treebeard tried to search for their name, but did not find them.

Nice questions make nice topics [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I'll be back, though I be the Ill-guest

P.S.: I'm sorry not to have returned your private message, Helkahothion, I had little time and anyway, I've no idea how to send private messages. ** ik zal je mijn e-mail adres geven, misschien kunnen we eens een keer samen (of met zijn drieen) een discussie voeren of er hier een beginnen waar we alledrie niet uitkomen: martijnend@hotmail.com ** Oh, and indeed BW would skin you and all us Dutchies for creating an only-Dutch topic [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

For the poeple here who do not speak Dutch, I'm quite sorry, it was meant as a reply for a private message.

greetings,
lathspell

[Lanniae of the Axe]

Yeah, I'm not Dutch, either, but is Swedish close enough? Oh. Wait. It's NOT just Dutchs. Dutches. Dutchsses. The Dutchish. (?) Alright, then i'm in!

I don't know where Hobbits come from (that's getting repetitve, no?) but I'd like to add that they definately were NOT "created"...which you have seemed to have come to the conclusion of, anyway. You know how Treebeard doesn't know what Merry and Pippin are? And Treebeard was around FOR EVER...

Oh! If you're looking for the hobbit's origin, read Concerning Hobbits! Took me a while, I jsut thought I'd glance...then DUH! But yeah. It's pretty vague stuff, though.

Apparently they "originated" on the western side of the misty mts. And they had their "wandering days" or whatever, when the crossed the mts. to the NE section of Middle earth. Yeah.

Maybe they're a sort of half-elf crossbreed? That's just a me-guess, strictly, i have no idea.

But I think it's the way it's s'posed to be. Tolkien...heck, okay, Iluvatar planned it to be where, well, this...people...that is truely OF middle-earth, that no one knows where they came from or who they are... I just think that it's fitting that, well--MIDDLE-EARTH's child saves the world in the end! Something like that. Anyone following me on that?

Oh, and Anuion, congrats on reading the Silmarillion! It's a tough read, but I really honestly think you CAN get through the entire book. I, too, read all of it, though I didn't get it the first time... AT ALL.... There ARE a lot of names involved. Seriously. You gotta sit there and read about a page at a time in some places, stopping to refer to a Tolkien Companion or Guide to Middle Earth every time a new name pops up! Crazy!

One last note, I DEFINATELY think the Silm. is Tolkien's Christianity coming through. I mean, Melkor used to be a good guy, just like Satan! I think TOlkien planned it that way. What's the one quote: The Lord of the Rings is a Christian work. Unconciously so in the beginning but conciously in the revision, or something like that? Yeah! Go Tolkien!

...Then there is Jackson the Defiler, whom i still plan on murdering--with an axe--if ROTK displeases me as much as TTT did. Hey, he's like Melkor! He wasn't ALWAYS a bad guy! PJ...the Fallen Angel?

Woo, sorry I got off topic, and man this is a really long post. sorry!

--Lanniae

[Lanniae of the Axe]

Whoa, Lathspell! I just realized I accidentally jacked your comment about Treebeard not knowing who the Hobbits were! Must proclaim my appologies!

--Lanniae

[lathspell]

No worries, Lanniae! Then the statement gets repeated a bit [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

In this thread 'creation' has come popping up a couple of times, yet this is a vague thing in my eyes. Surely the Hobbits were created, for everything else in the whole confines of Arda was created as well.
But if you mean: created like Iluvatar created Elves and Men, or Aule made the dwarves; then I'd think that this ain't the origin of the Hobbits. For all the creations were in the Silmarillion: Elves, Men, Dwarves, Ents, Orcs, Trolls and other evil things. Yet not a word is spoken about the Hobbits in the Elder Days, and that makes the possibility of Hobbits, being an obscure branche of Men after some hundreds of years of evolution, more likely.

Well, my fellow Downers, please state some reactions [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

greetings,
lathspell

[Aule]

Congratz on finishing the book, reread it a few hundred more times and you will soon have all the names memorised pretty much [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

If Hobbits are descended from Men, wich is what Tolkien says, then how on earth did they diverge so quickly. I'm sure there was only about 7/8000 years from the coming of men to the War of the Ring. Thats some bloody fast evololution. Its not as if they had massive turnover numbers like insects and bacteria so that they could evolve quicker than usual.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, I agree that Hobbits are a type of Man. How could I not? As Nils and lathspell have pointed out, Tolkien has said so himself.

But I am not sure that Hobbits can be said to have "evolved" from some original standard form of Man, with "Hobbit" characteristics only developing through years of living in burrows and hiding away from other Men. There simply wasn't sufficient time for this to have occured. I beleieve that Hobbits are first mentioned in records in TA 1,050. By my reckoning, this is some 5,000 years after the Awakening of Man at the beginning of the First Age. We have changed very little in the 4,000 years or so since the Bronze Age, so 5,000 years is nothing like enough time for Men standing over 6' tall to evolve into creatures of less than 4'.

I would say, therefore, that Hobbits awoke along with other (different types of) Men at the beginning of the First Age and that, when they awoke, they appeared pretty much as the Hobbits that we all come to know and love. After all, assuming that they too awoke in the Far East and hung around there for a while (or migrated only slowly), it comes as no surprise (being the retiring sorts that they are) that they are not noted in records until some way into the Third Age.

Edit: Sorry, Aule, didn't see your post before I posted this. Had I done, I would simply have said "I agree with Aule". [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ June 05, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

In a fic I suggested that Hobbits were the result of one of the Maiar doing a little re-engineering on some of the newly awakened Men. Call it forced evolution [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Hey Saucepan Man! I thank you for not seeing Aule's post because yours is so much more complete and I understand it better. (Sorry Aule)

And also thank you, guy who be short, that answers my question nicely.

[ June 09, 2003: Message edited by: Tinuviel of Denton ]

[Helkahothion]

Oh, and Anuion, congrats on reading the Silmarillion! It's a tough read, but I really honestly think you CAN get through the entire book. I, too, read all of it, though I didn't get it the first time... AT ALL.... There ARE a lot of names involved. Seriously. You gotta sit there and read about a page at a time in some places, stopping to refer to a Tolkien Companion or Guide to Middle Earth every time a new name pops up! Crazy!

I have had none such things. I read trough it easely enough. I only skipped "about Beleriand, since I did not care about the geography. But I only took a break in the first part since the genesis was driving me insane. But all in completely it took me about 2 days.

Congrats on the treebeard remark. Yes, that has made it all fit in the puzzle. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Suilad,

Anuion

[Rumil]

I see little problem with the fast divergence of men and hobbits.

As you no doubt know, there are still today many people who are 'dwarves' (hope this is a non-perjorative term), due to a simple genetic mutation. However, sadly, the child of two 'dwarves' is unlikely to survive. With a bit of poetic re-jigging of the DNA it would be easy to imagine that this could be remedied and that a race of short people could be possible.

The key thing would be that the 'dwarves' or hobbits if you like, lived in isolation from men for some time and did not inter-marry. This sort of 'fast evolution' could be facilitated by a gross perturbation of the ecosystem (ie. a disaster), such as, perhaps, a Dark Lord setting up shop in close proximity and wiping out a large part of the population, forcing small scattered groups to live secretly and eschew contact with 'outsiders'.

[Findegil]

I don't see such a problem with the fast evolution of Hobbits from man. If we look back a few thousand years we will find that the average height of men today is about 1 feet higher than let say in the Roman empire. As stated before a separation of the smaller kind would even speed that up.

Lets assume a situation where a girl is looking around for a husband:
Girl: "Look! Mum' I will take this tall man. He makes an impressive picture."
Mother: "O no, Girl! He is much to high. His head is far above the other man, so if the Orks are coming around, as they do to often these days, it will be shopped of much to easy!"
Girl: "But he is strong and will fight the Orks of!"
Mother: "O, girl you are so young and has to learn so much! He is to big and to slow to disappear quietly when it is needed!"
Girl: "But I love him!"
Mother: "That will not help you feed your children when once he is dead, and they might be as tall as he is and so hard to feed. Provision is small in these days. And remember what is the duty of a woman: When your husband and your children are hungry you might go without a meal in the evening."
Girl: "What! Me going without a meal, only because he is so tale and need more food! No! that's asked too much! I will take a smaller man." [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Respectfully
Findegil

[Helkahothion]

Nice example Findegil. Seeing the hobbits, it might be a little like that. I guess that solves the Hobbit issue.

Suilad,

Anuion

P.S. Not dwarves. The correct term is little people. No really, it's true.

[The Saucepan Man]

I guess that solves the Hobbit issue.

Er, excuse me. I beg to differ.

Quite apart from the fact that it would take considerably longer than 5,000 years for natural selection to reduce Men of over 6' to the size of Hobbits, JRRT's works admit no scope for the theory of evolution. Otherwise, Men (and indeed all other creatures of ME) would have awoken as single cell organisms. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

No, JRRT based his origin of the species on creationism. Therefore, Elves awoke as Elves, Dwarves awoke as Dwarves and Men awoke as Men. It must (in my opinion) follow that Hobbits awoke as Hobbits, albeit that they were a sub-group of the race of Man.

[Mahal]

Im Dutch too... But anyway it in the UT... its in appendix A after The Disaster of the gladden fields. There is that why the hobbits decreased in size.

[The Saucepan Man]

its in appendix A after The Disaster of the gladden fields. There is that why the hobbits decreased in size.

Mahal. I think that this must be the passage that you are referring to:

In another version of this note more is said of the diminishing stature of both Halflings and Numenoreans:

The dwindling of the Dunedain was not a normal tendency, shared by people whose proper home was Middle-earth; but due to the loss of their ancient land far in the West, nearest of all mortal lands to the Undying Realm. The much later dwindling of hobbits must be due to a change in their state and way of life; they became a fugitive and secret people, driven (as Men, the Big Folk, became more and more numerous, usurping the more fertile and habitable lands) to refuge in forest and wilderness: a wandering and poor folk, forgetful of their arts, living a precarious life absorbed in the search for food, and fearful of being seen.

Now, I read this recently and interpreted it as a comment on what happened to Hobbits after the advent of the Fourth Age. Christopher Tolkien prefaces the passage as a comment on Hobbits' (and Numenoreans') diminishing stature, but this, I think, must be referring to their diminishing stature as a race. In other words, as time passed, Men (of the standard size) became more dominant and Hobbits became marginalised. The word "dwindling" in reference to both the Dunedain and the Hobbits is referring, I think, to their dwindling in population, influence and innate power.

And looking at the passage agin, there are three key reasons why I think that this interpretation must be the right one:

First, it starts off by talking about the dwindling of the Numenorean race from the time of Numenor to the time of the War of the Ring. Now, I do not believe that Numenoreans significantly diminished in height over this period, so it must be talking in terms of their diminishing power as a race.

Secondly, the reference to Hobbits being driven to take refuge in forest and wilderness and losing touch with their arts seems to be talking about a time after their existence in the Shire.

And thirdly, their marginalisation is by the "Big Folk", so they must already have been small in (physical) stature at the start of the process.

So, I think that this passage is talking about why Hobbits did not continue to exist as a dominant race as the Fourth Age (and the successive Ages) progressed.

And, what a sad postscript for Hobbit-kind. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

But I am not sure that Hobbits can be said to have "evolved" from some original standard form of Man, with "Hobbit" characteristics only developing through years of living in burrows and hiding away from other Men. There simply wasn't sufficient time for this to have occured.

Does anybody know when pygmies appeared?

[ June 08, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[the guy who be short]

A very strange idea. The hobbits were Men, captured by Morgoth. He squashed them to make a new evil race, but smaller and quicker than orcs. But they escaped him before they were turned to evil.
I will now leave for you people to tread over and trash my idea [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Hehe, that seems to be as good an explanation as any other. I've always wondered why exactly hobbits are a sub-race of men. Did they de-evolve or something?
Maybe they were created by a Vala, just like the dwarves were. Maybe not, though...
They're a BIG mystery [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

Does anybody know when pygmies appeared?

Actually, the same thought occured to me when replying to this thread. But I wasn't able to find much on theories of pygmy evolution. I did come across a suggestion that pygmies' smaller stature was a result of a poor diet, but somehow I can't imagine Hobbits ever suffering from that problem. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Lanniae of the Axe]

Hey! Idea! Hobbits are a human-bunny crossbreed! Haha, just kidding!

--Lanniae
Who merely refers to everyone telling Bilbo he is a rabbit in The Hobbit. Poor guy. Everyone tells me I am a squirrel.

[Rumil]

Not sure when pygmies appeared, but there is a theory which maintains that their short, thin body type is ideal for their hot, wet ancient habitat, the jungles of equatorial Africa. The tall, thin Sudanese people are suited to their hot, dry climate while the short, plump Eskimos are suited to their cold climate. Most other people live in less extreme climates or have moved around a lot.

Anyway, Tolkien mentions pygmies in one of his oldest writings (n HoME somewhere), so there's the potential that they 'exist' somewhere in the South of Middle Earth.

I'm not entirely sure that Tolkien completely rejected evolution in Middle Earth. Admittedly, the peoples, animals and plants were created, but as the 'dwindling' of Hobbits after the 4th age shows, he doesn't rule out the possibility of change in these created peoples. Also there is the hint of selective breeding or 'un-natural selection' in Sauron's development of the Uruk-Hai.