Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
05-17-2003, 12:58 PM | #1 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Master of Sauron
Please forgive me if a similar thread exhists, but I couldn't find one.
I got the idea for this thread after reading this phrase in RotK, The Last Debate(said by Gandalf): Quote:
Quote:
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
||
05-17-2003, 02:08 PM | #2 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,592
|
The references are to Melkor/Morgoth who was the original primeval evil.
He was around in the First Age, and he may be coming back some day. You can read about him in the Silmarillion.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
05-17-2003, 02:09 PM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Ah. But it is a little strange to think that HE might even have a master? I mean, it is possible, isn't it?
Also, when Gandalf had said the phrase, it seemed like he didn't know who the master of Sauron was. I thought he would know something like that. [ May 17, 2003: Message edited by: kittiewhirl1677 ]
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
05-17-2003, 02:11 PM | #4 |
Summoner of Lost Souls
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: At home, with my Strongbow
Posts: 521
|
Melkor was one of the Valar and had no other master than Eru, who can't really be called his "master" anyway.
__________________
-"Death borders upon our birth, and our cradle stands in the grave. Our birth is nothing but our death begun." |
05-17-2003, 02:13 PM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Did Gandalf not know about him?
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
05-17-2003, 02:13 PM | #6 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,592
|
You mean "HE"-Sauron?
Yes, Morgoth was Sauron's master. Morgoth was originally a higher order of creation than Sauron, for one thing. Then for another Morgoth led Sauron into evil. And Gandalf knew about Morgoth. But Morgoth was long gone by the Third Age. I suggest that you read the Silmarillion. It is very interesting and will answer many questions about the background of LOTR (including this one). [ May 17, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
05-17-2003, 02:16 PM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
So Sauron was originally good?
Also, if Morgoth was long gone by then, wouldn't Sauron be the master? Maybe, in that case, Gandalf was talking about someone else? I'm really not sure about this, just trying to use logic as reading the Silmarillion doesn't really work for me. By HE I actually meant Eru. I read a little part about him in the beginning of the Silmarillion, but everything is created from something. I think it mentioned something about Eru coming from outside of all time, but still, he had to have been created somehow. [ May 17, 2003: Message edited by: kittiewhirl1677 ]
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
05-17-2003, 03:57 PM | #8 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2003
Location: on the wings of the morning
Posts: 394
|
If Eru is a God figure, then He does not have to have a beginning. Believing in God's infinitude is part of Christianity. It's inexplicable, but that's what faith is for.
Peace
__________________
'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!' |
05-17-2003, 03:58 PM | #9 | |||
Haunting Spirit
|
Okay here we go...
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Don't Rate Me!(Reverse Psychology?) "And the song of Luthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed..." |
|||
05-17-2003, 04:02 PM | #10 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Out there with the truth. Come find me.
Posts: 317
|
In the very beginning, when the song of creation was being sung, Melkor, later Morgoth, introduced his own strain of music as discord. He was helped by other creatures (Maiar) in his song, but the discord was his. When Melkor was cast into the void his song remained. Sauron serves the discord and the discord belongs to Melkor, it was his doing.
__________________
But then there was a star danced, and under that was I born. |
05-17-2003, 04:10 PM | #11 |
Haunting Spirit
|
10 imaginary points to X phial who explains things a lot better than me in far fewer words [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
Don't Rate Me!(Reverse Psychology?) "And the song of Luthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed..." |
05-17-2003, 05:07 PM | #12 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
I still don't really get this though, how does a planet start off with a song? Forgive me for being technical, but I'm a SciFi freak and it just doesn't pass for me. I sing like 12 hours a day and don't end up creating any planets!(LOL)
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
05-17-2003, 05:46 PM | #13 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
|
Quote:
The way I interpret what Gandalf is saying here is that Sauron was himself a servant of the original source of, ie Morgoth, and other servants or emissaries of that same evil may well arise, even after Sauron's defeat. As the X-Phial said: Quote:
The question which I think kittiewhirl is asking is whether another Dark Lord of the same ilk might arise or whether evil would be resticted to the lesser beings who remained (much as is the case in are world today). The former is possible, since another Maia could become corrupted into evil ways, but the latter is, I think, the more likely. Certainly, I do not believe that it was ever contemplated that there might be some being outside Eru's creation of greater or equal stature to Morgoth who might enter ME as some kind of fresh source of evil. [ May 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
||
05-17-2003, 06:19 PM | #14 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2003
Location: on the wings of the morning
Posts: 394
|
Quote:
These thoughts are just my opinions. I could be wrong. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Peace
__________________
'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!' |
|
05-17-2003, 06:45 PM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Indiana
Posts: 527
|
I believe that music was used because it is a medium that can have many intricate actions going on at once. Different tones, voices, harmonies, themes, rhythms, cadence, etc. Themes can be featured, then momentarily forgotten, and brought up fresh again. It's a wonderful medium to show the almost (?) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] infinite interactions and variations that are the hallmark of life on earth. (or ME) It's also so beautiful and poetic! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
http://www.lizmargason.com |
05-17-2003, 08:25 PM | #16 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
But see, if Eru was good, then wouldn't he just want to create good characters. Then why can't he control Melkor and make him good? He must have had some sense, and if he knew that Melkor was going to be evil, why did he create him?
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
05-17-2003, 08:41 PM | #17 |
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Birnham Wood
Posts: 800
|
It asksess too many questionss, precious! It must stops it, lest we cruch its bonesess in our teeeethhhh.
Kittty, I must suggest the Silmarillion. Ainulindale will explain all of this in one chapter. Iarwain
__________________
"And what are oaths but words we say to God?" |
05-17-2003, 08:42 PM | #18 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2003
Location: on the wings of the morning
Posts: 394
|
I hope you won't think I'm harping on religion, because I'm not trying to. Your question is what people have wrestled with throughout the centuries: 'Why did God(Eru) create Satan(Melkor)?' I suppose there is no answer that will completely satisfy everyone, but free will is definitely something that comes into play. Eru had a plan to advance goodness, but Melkor did not choose to follow that plan. I suppose the beauty of the human spirit is the ability to make choices, and choices for evil will obviously generate less than desirable consequences. Now I know you are thinking 'But didn't Eru know it would happen? Why didn't he stop Melkor?' In all reality, I don't think that a satisfactory answer will ever be found for why evil is allowed into the world, except for the fact that where there is darkness, whatever light there is will shine all the brighter. Again, all this is just my opinion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace
__________________
'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!' |
05-17-2003, 08:44 PM | #19 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2003
Location: on the wings of the morning
Posts: 394
|
kittiewhirl, I agree with Iarwain. Just try the Silm once more, and don't worry if all ethical questions are not answered. I don't think that's Tolkien's aim anyways.
Peace
__________________
'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!' |
05-17-2003, 08:45 PM | #20 |
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Birnham Wood
Posts: 800
|
Hold it, ignore the above, we're turning on to morality, my most favorite subject for discussion.
From your question we can push another that all Theists in general must ask and answer. Why would God create man if He knew that man could become evil? The answer lies in free will. If men were forced to be good, then what joy would come of their following God? On the other hand, if they were given a choice to follow or fall, greater joy and love could come of their choice to follow God. The difference is between robots and people. Push that idea into the creation of the Ainur, and you'll have yourself as sufficient an answer as you'll ever get. Iarwain [ May 17, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]
__________________
"And what are oaths but words we say to God?" |
05-17-2003, 08:58 PM | #21 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2003
Location: on the wings of the morning
Posts: 394
|
::applause:: Hurrah, Iarwain! You answered brilliantly and concisely, something that's hard for me to do. Nice job. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace
__________________
'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!' |
05-17-2003, 11:02 PM | #22 | |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
|
Quote:
[ May 18, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
|
05-18-2003, 07:28 PM | #23 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
I wish it was like this in real life... Eru created elves as his version of "living angels", and men as his version of "imperfect souls having right to choose" or something like that. When the elves had to leave ME, it kind of feels like they were created just for the purpose of helping the "imperfect souls" find the right path. Then, after they left, they couldn't return(I don't think?) and men had to be on their own from there. Am I making sense here?
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
05-18-2003, 07:37 PM | #24 |
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Birnham Wood
Posts: 800
|
You're clear as a bell, Kitty. I think part of the reason for this is that Tolkien was very interested in the idea of the Fall of man. Elves were examples of the unfallen man, while men represented reality.
Iarwain
__________________
"And what are oaths but words we say to God?" |
05-18-2003, 07:53 PM | #25 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Out there with the truth. Come find me.
Posts: 317
|
Actually, in his letters JRRT states that the elves were also fallen. They represent the ideals of art and accomplishment, not a moral rightness. Elves in the third age are not all good. They live in a sort of neverland, trying to preserve the past and at the same time mourning that it has gone. Tolkien sees this as a fault.
__________________
But then there was a star danced, and under that was I born. |
05-18-2003, 09:23 PM | #26 | |||||||||
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
|
Quote:
Letter No. 153: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Tolkien shares many, many more thoughts on this throughout the letters - I only went through about half. When quoting Letter No. 131 in another thread, Rimbaud made a good observation that agrees with Tolkien's comments on elves - they did fall: Quote:
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
|||||||||
05-19-2003, 02:47 PM | #27 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Wow, the way Tolkien creates his world is so fascinating. He actually creates his world of creatures based on what the dreams and ideals of our world are. Like, for example, men are imperfect, making wrong choices.
Other creatures kind of represent other parts of people, the way people wish to be. Like the elves, maybe, are kind of like what a human wishes to be. The only thing I'm stuck on is, why are there evil elves if this is so?
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
05-19-2003, 03:31 PM | #28 | ||
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
|
I gave this one in my previous post. Explains why elves weren't totally good.
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
||
05-19-2003, 05:19 PM | #29 |
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Birnham Wood
Posts: 800
|
And Iarwain gets shut down... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Oh well, I suppose Humphrey Carpenter didn't know that much about Tolkien after all. Iarwain
__________________
"And what are oaths but words we say to God?" |
05-19-2003, 06:14 PM | #30 |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
|
Don't feel shut down! We're all learning. Did you check out Letter 131?
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
05-19-2003, 07:05 PM | #31 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: May 2003
Location: on the wings of the morning
Posts: 394
|
Wow, Legolas, thanks! That is incredible. I had no idea that so much thought went into creating Middle Earth and all of the themes woven into it. What really strikes me is that the elves are manifestations of freedoms that mankind would like to have, and that their joys and sorrows are what would come to us if we had those freedoms. A real eye-opener. Thanks again. I will definitely have to look into getting that book. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
And Iarwain, you made some really good points in the thread, so don't be shut down! This thread has really shown me alot. Thanks [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Peace
__________________
'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!' |
05-20-2003, 01:01 PM | #32 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Yes, Tolkien was an eye-opener for all of us? Don't you all agree? The work he put into this all is just...amazing.
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
05-21-2003, 09:07 AM | #33 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
|
I love the nuggets of the Letters. The book reads surprisingly well, as it places the letters in chronological order. I get more insight in the Letters than i do from HOME on certain occaisions.
I love to tell my friends who are just now being introduced to LOTR vis a vis the movies, that Sauron was just a Lieutenant of a being even more powerfull. I love the look in their eyes hehe.... Sauron, although the top Lieutenant, was surely not the only one. Can anyone name the others? And was Sauron the only surviving "officer"? Where is my ME Most Wanted deck of cards when i need them? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] |
05-21-2003, 09:52 AM | #34 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,592
|
The only other names of high powered figures that we have are Glaurung and Gothmog, and they both bit the dust.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
05-21-2003, 03:13 PM | #35 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
|
a small deck of cards indeed
|
05-21-2003, 04:13 PM | #36 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Sauron wasn't the only one? Wow. I thought it was just him, and then Morgoth on top. Sauron gives me the chills though... how could he EVER have been good?
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
05-21-2003, 04:33 PM | #37 | |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 129
|
Here is something from Letters concerning Sauron:
Letter 183 Quote:
__________________
For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37 |
|
05-22-2003, 01:55 PM | #38 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
In other words, he started becoming greedier, and greedier and finally became totally evil?
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
05-22-2003, 07:06 PM | #39 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 129
|
kittie,
I missed your question about why Eru created evil. I have a little different take on the matter. Here is a quote from the Silmarillion from: Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valior Quote:
As for your question about Sauron getting greedier and greedier, I wouldn't say that. He did not get greedier. He desired to control that which he had no right to control. Because he had great power, that desire to control took over. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It seems to me that Galadriel started down that path at the beginning of the Noldor Rebellion. Quote:
X Phial, Actually, in his letters JRRT states that the elves were also fallen. I seem to remember reading recently in Morgoth's Ring that Elves were an unfallen people.
__________________
For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37 |
||
05-22-2003, 08:20 PM | #40 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
By the words greedier and greedier, I in fact, meant more of greedy for control. Need for domination. Prestige. Power, etc.
Quote:
__________________
The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone... |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|