Morgoth's Return

[Iarwain]

I was just pondering what the contents of the next book would have been. I imagine it would contain Morgoth with an enourmous army returning to Middle Earth, the Valar crossing returning ME for the last time, and all of the Hobbits, Men, and all of the other inhabitants of ME caught in the mix of the final battle of Arda. Something would have to be related to one of either Aragorn's or Eleanor's decendants. It would be truely amazing. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

What does everyone else think?

[Galorme]

I would have to say no. I am very sorry, but that age is over. Tolkien realised that. When he finished LoTR he realised that evil would never again take that kind of form. The book (the Return of the Shadow I believe) that he began to write next was all in all a much darker affair. There were no long orcs, but Orc cults, and the evil comes from men, where they abuse their free will. Because with the fall of Sauron men are free. And any story set in ME after LoTR is not going to be about Morgoth, or big armies of elves. If you want to read the kind of evil that comes post-elvish, go and read a book on the holocaust.

But then again maybe there is going to be one final ending. Maybe Morgoth will return at the very end, the End of time when the elves are nearing the end of their lifespans. Maybe there will be a Great War. But i have a horrible thought i know which side we will be on. But you never know.

[Lord Halsar]

Have you ever thought that perhaps, there was a darker being at work than Melkor? Perhaps a lord of terror beyond even Eru Illuvatar's power? Perhaps their would be no final battle. Perhaps it was all a false prediction to give the mortals hope that darkness would be destroyed, that Melkor was the most powerful evil. I would see this as possible. After all, Melkor was once a Valar himself. someone who was evil since the beginning of time would have been far more ruthless and powerful. but alas, i am not Tolkien himself (though i would like to be). we may never know.

[Raynor]

Have you ever thought that perhaps, there was a darker being at work than Melkor?

Frankly, no.

Perhaps a lord of terror beyond even Eru Illuvatar's power?

That would contradict all that is stated of Eru .

[Lord Halsar]

Well, Tolkien pretty much left left the door wide open when it comes to "all-powerful beings"
and besides, this is only my speculation. after all, what did all of the evil things in Tolkien's work do after defeat? they slinked away and waited to be returned to their old strength.
for much of this, melkor was locked away and could not aid his failing servants. there could have been another lord of far greater power about. one that may have still been "fighting the good fight" even after Sauron's failure.
you never know with Tolkien...

[Raynor]

Well, Tolkien pretty much left left the door wide open when it comes to "all-powerful beings"

Hm, can you be more specific? With referrences maybe .

[Lord Halsar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, can you be more specific? With referrences maybe .

You're missing the point. if there was another "all-powerful" being about, then i doubt that Eru would have any desire to let people know of that being's existance.
and who knows, maybe there was another world like ME, only with a continuous war between darkness and light, a war that may have influenced something on middle earth.

[Elmo]

Everyone knows He Who Arises in Might is the mightiest being in and out of Ea, and will come again and smite Eru and the Valar. Turning Arda into his own fiefdom for all eternity. And we will build temples to praise the Lord of All, Giver of Freedom. What a great day that will be, when we bow down and worship the Great Lord of the Dark, deliverer of us from the evil of Eru!


























(Stop spluttering Ray, I'm joking )

[Diamond18]

For me Middle-earth ends with the departure of Legolas and Gimli, the last members of the Fellowship to leave Middle-earth. I really would not like to think about "the final battle".

I absolutely hated C.S. Lewis's "The Last Battle", that told of the end of Narnia. I imagine that I would have an even stronger reaction to anything that told of the end of Middle-earth.

[Iarwain]

Don't be bitter galorme, he wasn't completely writing it as a prehistory to reality. Thus, you needn't limit your thoughts about ME to the real world. He even talks in Unfinished Tales about Dagor Dagorath, the final battle. p395 "Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns." HA!!!

[Iarwain]

sorry, diamond, forgot to respond to you. All i have to say is that i thought Lewis' Last Battle was a triumphant conclusion to Narnia, and (other than the first two or three chapters, i HATED puzzle and that ape) it was an excellent book.

[Galorme]

Sorry I just got beaten up in the street a few days ago for my mobile and can see very much where Melkor is now. Walk the streets of Tooting at night to see that Morgoth Baglir is still very much alive. I know which side I will be on come the Dagor Dagorath.

[Iarwain]

oh, don't be hard headed. Quick question. which books have you read? oh, and where did you come up with your Middle earth in the real world theology?

[Iarwain]

by the way. its Morgoth Bauglir, not Baglir

[Iarwain]

would anyone else like to comment?

[Galorme]

Letters (I dont know what number): Middle Earth is basically our earth a long way in the past. Also read History V, (The Other Writings of the Lost Road and Other Writings) and it gives a blow by blow account of how the world has progressed from earlier to now. I apologise for droping the u, and being Hard Headed, but i do believe i shape JRRT's opinion of the future of his books. Anyway even without the worlds being the same the future would still be similar.

Ok i am a little happier now (Listening to Ska :-D) and i admit that it was i was being a little dark. As for what books have i read i have read the first 10 books of the histories and all of the interesting stuff from 12. Plus LoTR and the Sil of course. And the hobbit about 200 times.

[Iarwain]

thanks for the reply. I tend to get very hyper when i pick up debates with people: I love proving them worng. thanks, its been very interesting. Sorry about the u, just another way to prove you wrong, but you weren't, totally that is. I've never managed to get a hold of a copy of The Lost Road, and i never read though all of the letters either.
Bye!

[Iarwain]

spelling error on me! I meant wrong.

[Diamond18]

I never said that I thought "The Last Battle" was a bad book. I just hated it. It takes away from the mystery and magic of a mythical world, I think, to describe it's end. But that's just me.

[Galorme]

I got scared there. Worng sounds like an orcish torture word to me. I have a habit of picking debates at the edge of the slightly fuzzy area's of Tolkiens work. I think it annoys people that i take the stuff written in the histories as truthful as the later works. I also take the thing to be true if it is fun and cool, not so much if it makes sense. I can strongly recommend any of the histories providing you read them for the right reasons. The Sil and the LoTRs, and especially LoTR contains much more 'true' stuff than the histories. Read them in their own right, they are almost all excellent providing you don’t expect the wrong things from them.

Oh yeah on the original topic I think that the best plot for a story would be to include Eriol, who is the character from the Lost Tales. He is a man who travels to the lonely isle, by a combination of good luck and bad luck on the part of the Elves (Osse was not quite the anchorer he made himself out to be. i will leave that as a teaser). There he learns of the elves and the things in the Sil, but more importantly he sees wonderful things and meets old and wise elves who tell him about the world and its history. He visits Kortion (sp???), and learns of the cottage of lost play. I think that this is a wonderful feel, a happiness, a magic quality. It is very much Faerie, and it is even called such (The Haven of Swans is called The Bay of Faere). This is how you would make the next, and definitely final book. Ack i really want to say something else but it will ruin the book for you (lets just say it ends very much with man).