Theory on Trolls, Olog-hai, and their [I]fear[/I].

After reading the essays on the origin of Orks in Morgoth's Ring (HoMe X), the origin of Trolls is left in doubt. First, we must remember that "Melkor could not 'create' living 'creatures' of independant wills" (HoMe X).
In a letter of 1954, Tolkien calls the Trolls "counterfeits", which is why they turn to stone, but immediately adds that anything that speaks must have a "soul". He also muses over whether they may have been humanoid animals twisted by Morgoth, but never reaches a conclusion. However, in HoMe XII, Tolkien states that (when discussing the Olog-hai) "there was no kinship from the beginning between the stone-trolls and the Orcs so that they might breed together". This would mean that they were definately corrupted not Men (and as HoMe X shows, Tolkien decided that Elves and Dwarves were too "resistant" to be turned into Orks).
Which leaves animals and counterfeits, and the matter of their speaking. However, in the Hobbit it says:

"…Trolls, as you probably know, must be underground before dawn, or they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of, and never move again."

Although in Letters Tolkien says that a few details were exagerrated or 'fairy-story-ised' by Bilbo, due to his small range of experience when it came to the Wide World, I think that unless the author was absolutely certain that Trolls were in fact made from stone, he would have simply said that they turned into stone and not mentioned that they were from it. Add to this the fact that there seems no good reason for beasts to turn into stone when Orks and Nazgul don't, and the only origin for Trolls seems to be that they were indeed counterfeits. But this still does not solve the matter of whether they posses a soul.
In HoMe X Tolkien toys with the idea of Orks not actually having souls, but merely reeling off "records" set in them by Morgoth, being full of hate. He discards this idea however, but could it not apply to Trolls? Tolkien mentions the example of Aule's mindless Dwarves, ans, after again saying how Morgoth dispersed his power among his agents:

"Aule...of course had no thought of dispersing his power. Only Eru can give love and independance."

[Italics are Tolkien's]. This would seem to say that if Morgoth put his power into these stones, that they could have 'minds' of their own: not proper minds, but a kind of 'artificial intelligance', enough to carry out their task of killing. It would also explain their lack of intelligence, though of course many things can explain that, the most obvious being that they are made out of stone, hardly renowned for its brains.
However, Tolkien later says (again in HoMe X) that such "'Puppets' would simply cease to move or 'live' at all, when not set in motion by the direct will of their maker." And yet we see that Trolls continue to live and act with minds of their own after Morgoth's defeat. Therefore, it seems that they must posses a fea, somehow.
Which brings me to my final theory: Could the Dark Powers 'transplant' a creature's fea into a new hroa? Certainly this happened in Elven reincarnation, although Tolkien states in the Athrabeth (HoMe X) that "The Valar are now given authority to reincarnate the fear of Elves who have died in hroar identical to those they have lost [becuase each fear remembers its old body, so if it is born anew its memories are so potent that its body becomes as that form. This effect that the fea has on the appearence of the hroa is very important, as Tolkien also says in HoMe that the fear of the Men Morgoth corrurpted to become Orks became so debased that it warped their hroar into a reflection of their debasement]". This summarises a debate between Manwe and Eru over what to do with houseless fear: Manwe asks Eru's authority to "meddle with Thy Children", as he does not wish to upset Eru, and Eru grants it, but adds that "The skills [of reincarnating fear] ye have already, if ye will take heed". Thus, so would Melkor, mightiest of the Ainur.
Tolkien also states in HoMe that each housless fea (dead person's soul) is summoned to the Halls of Mados - but that they can ignore those summons if they wish (or as the usual case, have been decieved by the Dark Powers). It is then stated that they are "Unbodied", because "Re-birth is a grace", and "does not lie in the power of any fea in itself". So those who refuse the Summons cannot be reincarnated because the Valar are not there to do it for them. Tolkien also makes it clear that refusing the Summons is "a sign of taint", and that the Unbodied have fallen under Evil's influence, and that "Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone." Ghosts or poltergeists? Evil spirits at the least, capapble of possesion and killing:

"The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully...[the evil fea] may seek to eject the fea from its body...[or] seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them."

Thus Sauron taught his followers to reject the Summons, and then to linger and attempt to posses people and/or harm or kill them.
It seems clear therefore that if Morgoth (and maybe Sauron, as the most powerful Maia) could 'reincarnate', though they had no authority to. Maybe they were not aware of their powers, just as Manwe was not, but certainly they were aware of the power of the fear, and the "hungry Houseless['s]" burning desire for new bodies. Is it then a far stretch of the imagination to think that the Dark Powers could have taken fear of their followers and placed them into bodies of stone? Even if they could not do this with all fear, and I do not think that they could, as Tolkien frequently repeats how the fea cannot be forced to do anything against its will when unhoused, I think that it would have been possible for them to thus place fear into stone. And as the fear shapes its house, so the stone would twist into a grim reflection of these fear's debasement, but as the fear held memories of their old forms, would have 'flesh' and would appear to be a large humanoid. When sunlight hits the Troll, as they were created in the Great Darkness and so "cannot abide the sun", yet their bodies are not of flesh but of stone, it would make sense for them to revert to stone. And so when the Troll is slain, and the fea escapes it, it would thus also logically revert to its original stone.
But what about the Olog-hai? Appendix F of LotR states that "Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them." In HoMe X it is frequently stated that Morgoth dreams up his evil schemes, but it is Sauron, with his "cooler" head (at least before he imitated Morgoth's nihilistic madness), who carries out the ideas. Such was the case with the Orcs, and above it says that Sauron taught followers how to posses. Would it not therefore make sense that Sauron had at last by the Third Age perfected his technique of transeferring fear; that these Olog-hai and their fear could maintain their living forms in the sun as long as Sauron aided them? I think so.
I am obviously not saying that this is the only origin, or the 'correct' origin, of the Troll-races, but I do think that it is certainly an intriguing (and disturbing) possibility. Please share your thoughts on this.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Wow, Olorin__TLA, lots of food for thought in your post! You are introducing yourself to the forum with a bang! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] At first glimpse, your idea of transferred fearsounds plausible. It will be interesting to continue reading this thread to see what opinions others have!

[Aiwendil]

I don't have time to respond at length at the moment, but a few points occurred to me while reading your post:

However, in HoMe XII, Tolkien states that (when discussing the Olog-hai) "there was no kinship from the beginning between the stone-trolls and the Orcs so that they might breed together".

There are problems with this statement. Elves and Men, for example, had no kinship from the beginning, but they can breed together.

as HoMe X shows, Tolkien decided that Elves and Dwarves were too "resistant" to be turned into Orks

Not definitively. He seems to have decided in one essay that they must be Men, but later he says something to the effect of "It is probable, then, that there was Elvish blood in Orcs" (sorry I don't have the actual quote at hand).

Moreover, the Mannish origin for Orcs depends upon the round-world cosmogony. If you accept the flat-world version as the "authentic" one (as CRT did), then you have little choice but to say that Orcs are corrupted Elves; they first appear long before Men awaken.

Therefore, it seems that they must posses a fea, somehow.

Agreed. Consider, for instance, their dialogue in The Hobbit.

Could the Dark Powers 'transplant' a creature's fea into a new hroa?

This is an interesting theory, and sounds plausible. A question, though: what about Treebeard's comments on trolls? He suggests that the relation between Ents and Trolls is analogous to that between Elves and Orcs. If Orcs are indeed Elvish, does that not mean that Trolls are Entish? (I realize that it is not certain that Orcs were bred from Elves, but it is at least a strong possibility). Of course, Treebeard's accounts are often vague and slightly inaccurate (as when he talks about the "great darkness" coming in and driving out the Elves).

You are introducing yourself to the forum with a bang!

Thanks! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

There are problems with this statement. Elves and Men, for example, had no kinship from the beginning, but they can breed together.

Well, I took this to mean that it was actually biologically impossible to breed, because Elves and Men do share many similarities, whereas Trolls are "unlike even the largest of Orc-kind" (paraphrased from Appendix F) - so I took this to mean that they were in fact very biologically different, or at least couldn't interbreed.

Not definitively. He seems to have decided in one essay that they must be Men, but later he says something to the effect of "It is probable, then, that there was Elvish blood in Orcs" (sorry I don't have the actual quote at hand).

In that essay he could not decide whther or not Orks were ELvish or not - that quote from his conclusion you just gave in fact contradicted the latter half of the essay without giving any new arguments, so I think that he was thinking as he wrote and wasn't quite sure at that time. In his final essay on the subject, however, (I think it's the one after this one) he is positive that Orks cannot be corrupted ELves and are definately fallen Men.

Moreover, the Mannish origin for Orcs depends upon the round-world cosmogony. If you accept the flat-world version as the "authentic" one (as CRT did), then you have little choice but to say that Orcs are corrupted Elves; they first appear long before Men awaken.

Hmm, i know about the World changing from flat to round after the Drowning of Numenor, but maybe this isn't what you're refering to (?), as I don't see how this would affect events in the pre-First Age.

This is an interesting theory, and sounds plausible.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

A question, though: what about Treebeard's comments on trolls? He suggests that the relation between Ents and Trolls is analogous to that between Elves and Orcs. If Orcs are indeed Elvish, does that not mean that Trolls are Entish? (I realize that it is not certain that Orcs were bred from Elves, but it is at least a strong possibility). Of course, Treebeard's accounts are often vague and slightly inaccurate (as when he talks about the "great darkness" coming in and driving out the Elves).

In Letters Tolkien says that "Treebeard is not me", and was in fact misinformed and wrong about that. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Poor Treebeard, thinkng a bit too hasty there [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

My my, what a post! You have definetly put some thought into this, quite impressive I must say. Hail and well met Olorin.

Let me take a stab at this. I'm going to refer to something you said in your first post.

However, Tolkien later says (again in HoMe X) that such "'Puppets' would simply cease to move or 'live' at all, when not set in motion by the direct will of their maker." And yet we see that Trolls continue to live and act with minds of their own after Morgoth's defeat.

Morgoth's influence on Middle Earth was extremely strong. In fact, he put so much of himself, his evil, into the earth that lingers still after his captivity. We see this in disease, the Fell Winter, and such. I believe this also could apply for Trolls. Morgoth could have set their existence into motion, and even though he is no longer in direct, control over them, they still can function. It's like ripples in a pond I suppose.

Now, if Tolkien stated that Trolls could reproduce, then this idea would not hold merit, but he doesn't. Trolls didn't reproduce on their own. I think that the stock of trolls that he possibly made were the only ones in existence.

This could explain thier origins.

As far as the Olog-Hai, that is obviously Sauron's doing, and like Tolkien stated. Their power is solely dependent on him so that takes care of that, so to speak. How he mixed troll with man is another thread in itself, but suffice it to say, with the power that Sauron had in the Third Age, a combination of the two is not unlikely. How did Sauruman mingle orc with man? I can't picture the two mating, so their has to be some other power behind it. But that is conjectural.

I hope I haven't sounded too, well, ridiculous. Just throwing out some ideas. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Amazing topic!

My my, what a post! You have definetly put some thought into this, quite impressive I must say. Hail and well met Olorin.

Mae govanen, Orofacion! I was inspiredby reading through this site's essay on where Olog-hai were in LotR, and decided I wanted to find out where Trolls came from in the first place.

Morgoth's influence on Middle Earth was extremely strong. In fact, he put so much of himself, his evil, into the earth that lingers still after his captivity. We see this in disease, the Fell Winter, and such. I believe this also could apply for Trolls. Morgoth could have set their existence into motion, and even though he is no longer in direct, control over them, they still can function. It's like ripples in a pond I suppose.

Interesting, could his lingering influence continue to give Trolls life? I don't know (would Tolkien have written that part if he hadn't emant that without Morgtoh the puppets would 'die'?), but would this be enough for the kind of behaviour exhibited in The Hobbit?

As far as the Olog-Hai, that is obviously Sauron's doing, and like Tolkien stated. Their power is solely dependent on him so that takes care of that, so to speak. How he mixed troll with man is another thread in itself, but suffice it to say, with the power that Sauron had in the Third Age, a combination of the two is not unlikely. How did Sauruman mingle orc with man? I can't picture the two mating, so their has to be some other power behind it. But that is conjectural.

Yep, they defiantely didn't mate, so amybe like I suggested a fear 'transplant'? Or even a blending of stone and flesh hroar (which would be almost as bad as mating, I think [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img])? Or something different altogether?

As for Saruman's half-Orcs...

"Finally, there is a cogent point, though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be amde to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered thsi, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery commited this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."[HoMe X]

[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

I hope I haven't sounded too, well, ridiculous. Just throwing out some ideas. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Amazing topic!

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Thanks!

[Kuruharan]

Morgoth's influence on Middle Earth was extremely strong. In fact, he put so much of himself, his evil, into the earth that lingers still after his captivity...I believe this also could apply for Trolls. Morgoth could have set their existence into motion, and even though he is no longer in direct, control over them, they still can function. It's like ripples in a pond I suppose.

Interesting, could his lingering influence continue to give Trolls life?

A better analogy might be a robot and it's maker. The robot would still continue to function according to it's programming even after the removal of the maker.

Morgoth direcly applied his will to the Trolls in their beginning, and they could then continue to function without his direct control because they, on a very internal level, knew what they had to do.

However, as has already been said, there had to be more than just this going on because the 'robot' theory is a bit too...well machine-like.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

That's actually alot better, your right Kuruharan. Of course trolls were not robots, but you have the right idea about them being set in motion, and that was enough to keep them "truckin'".

Trolls weren't the most intelligent beings in Arda and they had little or no free will of their own. A troll could not simply say "hey, this whole killing thing just isn't for me, I think I'll be a gardner." They were given a purpose, and they continued this purpose even after Morgoth was gone. This indicates no soul, no free will.

...but would this be enough for the kind of behaviour exhibited in The Hobbit?

Well, we all know that the hobbit has many irregularities when it comes to Tolkien's universe as a whole. It was in the beginning, a bedtime story for his children, so talking trolls would be understandably entertaining, but they are "out of place". Perhaps if Tolkien were still around, he might not have had the trolls talk in the Hobbit, especially not with a cokney accent. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ July 05, 2002: Message edited by: Orofacion of the Vanyar ]

[lindil]

As this is a great thread which hither to I did not even no existed let me prounounce the magic word...

up

[Maerbenn]

From Myths Transformed:

It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with by Melkor.

From The Lord of the Rings, Appendix F:

In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn, and increasing their wits with wickedness.

From The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #153:

I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested.

So it seems that the Stone Trolls in The Hobbit were not creatures tinkered with (bred with Men) by Melkor or Sauron; they were of the original stock of Trolls. The other Trolls (of Melkor and Sauron) were corruptions of this Troll stock (they could withstand the Sun). That one of the Trolls in The Hobbit (William) has a feeling of pity for Bilbo seems to support this.

But; I'm aware that I am on shaky ground citing William's "pity", because JRRT in that same letter says:

I do not say William felt pity - a word to me of moral and imaginative worth: it is the Pity of Bilbo and later Frodo that ultimately allows the Quest to be achieved ... There is no more 'pity' here than in a beast of prey yawning, or lazily patting a creature it could eat, but does not want to, since it is not hungry.