Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
01-03-2003, 12:54 PM | #1 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
Balrog getting killed?
In the books, Gandalf fights the Balrog on Zirak-zigil ( i think that's how it's spelled!) and kills him. In TTT movie,Gandalf uses his sword to hold lightining and stabs the balrog, killing him. How can this kill a Balrog, and does it mention this in the book?
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-03-2003, 01:47 PM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
What do you mean by 'how can this kill a Balrog'? Stabbing is a pretty effective way to kill almost anything.
|
01-03-2003, 01:55 PM | #3 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
TRUE. but an immortal fire demon spirit of Morgoth would seem to take a bit more.
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-03-2003, 02:01 PM | #4 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
it just seems like a sword wouldnt do much damage to it. the balrog really seems to be more spirit than flesh, so how can this hurt it?
[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: Mandos ]
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-03-2003, 02:03 PM | #5 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 94
|
Ask Peter Jackson. I don't think this belongs to "The Books"-section. The Movies actually have nothing to do with Tolkien, they are only based on his books. Sorry, but I think this is a stupid question.
(The only mention of Gandalf using his sword while battling the Balrog is that he used it to defend from the Balrog's sword)
__________________
"Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!" ~Eomer |
01-03-2003, 02:13 PM | #6 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
my inquiry sir, was based on the books. i asked if there was any mention of gandalf fightining the balrog on zirak-zigil and i was wandering if a sword could kill a spirit of fire as the balrog is described by tolkien,"of shadow and flame" and the valarukar as described in the Silmarillion.
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-03-2003, 04:29 PM | #7 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Quote:
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them." |
|
01-03-2003, 05:47 PM | #8 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Angband
Posts: 70
|
Well PJ was wrong because in the books Gandalf said that the Balrog was killed by the fall.
__________________
"The dwarf breathes so loud we could have shot him in the dark "What an excellent spot I choose"-Gimli "Would you like me to describe it to you or just fetch for a box"-Legolas |
01-03-2003, 05:51 PM | #9 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
true. i wonder how little ol' gandalf threw a balrog off a mountain though.
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-03-2003, 06:02 PM | #10 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
never though about how he could do it, although i assume that he is a lot tougher then he lets on. although if we are goning to wonder about such things, how come the fall off the mountin killed the balrog, when both he and Gandalf survied the fall from the bridge? the fall from the bridge to the bottem of the pit that was reputated to be a much longer fall then any that could happen from the top of a mountin. kind of stange if you ask me
|
01-03-2003, 06:06 PM | #11 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
although, there was water at the bottom of the chasm, when the balrog was thrown off the mountain, there was only very sharp rocks.
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-03-2003, 06:11 PM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
That Balrogs were ever killed at all indicates that they were incarnate, and thus susceptible to attacks with sharp things. For more on Balrog incarnation, see this thread.
Edit: Gandalf was not relatively 'little' (that is, relative to the Balrog's attributes), either in spiritual potency or in physical size. [ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ] |
01-03-2003, 06:16 PM | #13 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
since they were evil they couldnt be reincarnated as elves could.
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-03-2003, 06:21 PM | #14 |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
|
Or like Sauron, either. OH WAIT.
P.S. oloquy wasn't talking about reincarnation, just regular old incarnation. [ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
01-03-2003, 08:35 PM | #15 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
oh. is there any evidence that servants of evil, morgoth, sauron, can be brought back as Gandalf was? Or do they just sit in the Halls of Mandos, or cast out with Morgoth?
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-03-2003, 08:57 PM | #16 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
Weren't Balrogs originally some of the Mia? or were they different beings altogether?
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-03-2003, 09:20 PM | #17 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
the balrogs are suppose to be intelligent since they were once these "good" beings. Could they speak though?
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-04-2003, 06:41 AM | #18 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
01-04-2003, 01:13 PM | #19 |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
|
Such a being was bound to its incarnation to an extent.
This is why Fingolfin could injure Morgoth, why Gil-galad and Elendil could kill Sauron, why Glorfindel and Ecthelion could kill their respective balrogs, why Saruman could die the way he did, etc.
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
01-04-2003, 06:27 PM | #20 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
To an extent? To no extent at all. No evil person was ever incarnated, or was there an incident?
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-04-2003, 07:08 PM | #21 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Unless I'm seriously missing something really big, weren't all evil people incarnated? Melkor had a body, Sauron had bodies, the Balrogs had bodies....
Unless you mean reincarnated. Sauron was on no less then two occasions.
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them." |
01-04-2003, 07:22 PM | #22 |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
|
Yeah, Manwe. Pretty much.
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
01-04-2003, 07:32 PM | #23 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
sorry i erred. i did indeed mean reincarnated. i didnt think about sauron. after the destruction of Numenor i suppose he was reincarnated since he definately had a physical form to fight Gil-galad and Elendil. i wonder if gothmog or any of the valarukar were reincarnated though. Sauron was strong in power and enchantments. I do suppose that the balrogs were enchanted since they were Miar. I wonder why they didnt speak though?
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-04-2003, 08:03 PM | #24 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
They did speak. And they were probably just as powerful as Sauron, because they were all Maiar. Sauron just chose to be more independent, or Melkor liked him better.
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them." |
01-04-2003, 11:17 PM | #25 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
Why did Sauron not look like the Blarogs then? im not arguing, but am genuinely curious, where does it mention a blarog speaking?
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-04-2003, 11:35 PM | #26 |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
|
Because he didn't want to. The Balrog does spells, spells require talking.
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
01-05-2003, 12:51 PM | #27 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
r u referring to the incident with something and gandalf having a battle over the door in moria?
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-05-2003, 02:00 PM | #28 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
I'll answer a question with a question:
When was it mentioned that Maiar couldn't talk?
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them." |
01-05-2003, 02:07 PM | #29 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
What of evil suverted transformed Miaa?
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-05-2003, 02:12 PM | #30 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
Sauron talked as a wolf [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them." |
01-05-2003, 02:15 PM | #31 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
true.........but wasnt he more powerful than the valarukar? He was favored of Morgoth.
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-05-2003, 02:58 PM | #32 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 97
|
The Valaraukar were Maiar. Greater than these Evil spirits was Sauron. But these spirits can take on a form of their liking. Gandalf is a Maia, he has taken the form of a man. But once He was killed he could not take on the same form as Gandalf the Grey, He became Gandalf the White. Sauron was struck down and when came back he took the form of a Great Eye. There was a Balrog killed in one of the History books of middle earth. And if you pay attention to the movie, I believe they show The Balrog falling off the side of mountain and dying. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I think I have to see it again--Yavanna
__________________
"Nonetheless they will have need of wood." Aulë speaking to Yavanna of Dwarves :P to you Aulë |
01-05-2003, 03:03 PM | #33 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
I never said that Balrogs couldnt die, i asked where does it give and intstance of one speaking. also, if you read the Silmarillion you will see that many other balrogs have been killed. Including the king of the balrogs who was killed by ecthalion of the fountain in the city of Gondolin.
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-05-2003, 03:38 PM | #34 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 97
|
I have read the Silmarillion, The Lord of the Rings(both,repeatedly),The Unfinished Tales, and The Books of lost Tales, I don't recall A Balrog speaking but I am sure they can because they are Maiar and thats..
Ecthelion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Sorry to bother you
__________________
"Nonetheless they will have need of wood." Aulë speaking to Yavanna of Dwarves :P to you Aulë |
01-05-2003, 09:01 PM | #35 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
|
How about this...Balrogs were Maiar spirits of fire. Arien (sp?) was also a Maia spirit of fire....and I'm pretty sure she could talk. As could any Maia in any form, I'm sure.
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them." |
01-05-2003, 09:48 PM | #36 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
That's an interesting point, this makes one wonder if Arien could be considered a "good balrog" sice both were demons of fire. Arien was the one who carried the vessel that is the sun. Who was the one that carried the moon?
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-05-2003, 11:06 PM | #37 |
Hidden Spirit
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
|
Arien isn't a demon.
[ January 06, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways? |
01-05-2003, 11:09 PM | #38 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Panama City, Florida
Posts: 131
|
Sorry, i meant Spirits of Fire.
__________________
He came unto the timeless halls where shining fall the countless years and endless reigns the Elder King in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer |
01-06-2003, 12:48 PM | #39 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 97
|
Tilion was the Maia that guided the Isil or the moon that containd the last silver flower of Telperion.
I don't think Arien was a demon just a spirit of fire. But I'm sure she was beautiful not ugly like the Valaraukar. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Yavanna
__________________
"Nonetheless they will have need of wood." Aulë speaking to Yavanna of Dwarves :P to you Aulë |
01-06-2003, 01:08 PM | #40 |
Visionary Spirit
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 633
|
Yavanna Kementari:
Hail friend. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] * bows * Your words remind me of a poem I once heard recited by a Hobbit on one of my trips through the Shire: Yet even Arien rides alone, Anar’s course steadily keeping, gazing on a frozen pond to thaw and heal the weeping. Each fiery tear she gently takes as dew gathered into a vial. The heat she smoothes with caring song into a soft gold smile. The wind can frighten with its change. The sun above endures. Draw strength now from the dawn’s new light As it comes to reassure. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|