Destruction of the The Ring...

[Elvish Archer]

I don't understand. If the ring of power was destroyed, would not the power that Sauron put into then revert back to him? Is it not like untying a knot? Even if the knot loosed, you still have the rope. In the same way, would not the power of Sauron still exist even if it's physical emobodiment was destroyed? I would assume that the power would then return by default to the original owner.

EA

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:42 PM January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Finwe]

The power that was put into the Ring became a part of the Ring itself. When the body of the Ring was destroyed, so to speak, its mind was destroyed too. Just as a human mind could not survive the destruction of its body, the power sustained in the Ring could not survive its destruction in the Sammath Naur.

[Sparrow]

Great explanation, Finwe! The Ring was, for all practical purposes, a part of Sauron. Ergo, if Sauron loses the Ring, his power is depleted, if the Ring is destroyed, he is destroyed.

[The Perky Ent]

Yes, it's just like the matrix! Sauron - ring = dead! his lifeforce it bound to it, but if sauron were in physical form and lost the ring...

[warrenerd]

the ring WAS sauron's power. hence the name, the ring of power. when it was destroyed, sauron's power was destroyed, and he couldn't survive on hate alone, could he? so he went 'woosh' and died. without the woosh. i just added that for an effect... yeah...
~ignoring the wall~

Like Red said. Think of it this way. If you bleed into a bag, and then throw that bag into a volcanic mountain, you wont get your blood back. You threw it away.

[Gorwingel]

Well Sauron didn't really "die" in the way that we all think of it. It is just that he had so much of his power in the ring, that once it was distroyed he was really a shadow of his former self. He still exsisted in a way, but he was left so powerless that he could never again take physical form (I hope I am right, even a little bit. I am taking a chance right here).

[rutslegolas]

i think you all are right.
but didnt gandalf say"if we destroy the ring his fall would be so great that non could FORETELL HIS RISING"

so is it possible that the dark lord could rise again???

[bilbo_baggins]

Not in all the ages of the World, rutslegolas. Remember that Gandalf is a Maia, and he could tell what was going to happen ( at least partially, by the music of the Ainur) and he could not see Sauron rising to power ever again.

[Firefoot]

Yes, Gorwingel, that's right. Sauron lost so much of his power when the Ring was destroyed that he was diminished to a shadow of evil, never able to rise or take shape again. Also, Sauron didn't put all of his power into the Ring, just a very great part of it. Enough that when that power was destroyed he no longer had enough power to rise or take shape again.

And now I have gone in a complete circle and am repeating myself.

[Potatothan]

Indeed it was not all his power he placed in the ring. Isn't it stated?

And in this ring he poured most of his cruelty, malice and his will to dominate all life

So most of isn't everything, but it certainly was too much.

*looks around for mentioned wall and tries to evade it*

~Potatothan

Wow. understanding the Ring of Power is tricky at times. I think it is interesting to note that while Sauron wore the ring his power was actually enhanced in ME. However, when the ring was destroyed so was much of his power and he was no longer able to re-build his physical form like he did after his battle with Gil-Galad and Elendil or after the Downfall of Numenor. I imagine his spirit is just wafting around ME--I mean he can't go back to Valinor, he isn't cast into the void like Melkor....

Roxbury

[rutslegolas]

ya thanks firefoot and bilbo baggins i understand it now clearly.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Sauron is totally wasted after the War of the Ring, so who cares?

Just thinking of Morgoth propelling towards Earth from space as a fiery Meteor sent me tremors throughout. Where is Bruce Willes when you need him?!?

[Lyta_Underhill]

I imagine his spirit is just wafting around ME--I mean he can't go back to Valinor, he isn't cast into the void like Melkor....

When I started to think about the fact that Sauron was, as you say, Roxbury, just kind of "wafting" around in Middle Earth without form, unable to rise again, it suggested to me a parallel structure with the splintering and diffusion of the Light as well. Whereas the lessening of the ancient purity of the Lamps of the Valar and the Two Trees is traced more or less to the Sun and Moon and reflected through the lessening of the Race of Numenor and the shrinking of the stature of hobbits, etc. , so also is the shadow "diffused" about Middle Earth with Sauron's fall. There is no longer a single, concentrated threat and definable evil figure one can point to after Sauron's fall. But the lesser evils continue and seethe in the hidden places, occasionally to break forth and cause trouble. I cannot remember the quote wherein Tolkien says that, after Sauron, there will be no future evil of the same kind, i.e., embodied and concentrated as he was.

I think this speaks to a basic, sort of entropic reordering of the whole of Middle Earth concerning the transition of Third to Fourth Age. Not only do the Elves and Maiar leave, but only the shadows of the great embodied shadows of Middle Earth remain as well. Men are left to battle splintered evil and gather the fragments of great good. This was just a thought I had as I read through this thread several times in the last few days. Thanks for listening...uh...reading!

Cheers,
Lyta

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Going back to the original question of why the destroying of the Ring causes the end of Sauron, the tale The Faithful Stone in the Unfinished tales, explains a similar case.
In it, Aghan, a Drúedain, passes some of his power to a watch-stone. The basis of the stone is burned by fire, and as a consequence the legs of Aghan blister. After thinking about it, Aghan says:

If some power passes from you to a thing that you have made, then you must take a share in its hurts

The Faithful Stone; Unfinished Tales

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Hum, This was the one part of LoTr I did not understand. Also, Why did Sauron not take physical form? He was a miar, he changed his form many times, for example, even when Huan the wolf destroyed his giant wolf form sauron's spirit fled and took another shape. And all those who are saying "Well the ring stopped him from taking shape" I say this; he took form as the necromancer, physical form. That dose not explain why he did not take a form when he returned to Mordor?

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Hookbill, Sauron did have a physical form during the War of the Ring, in Mordor, but as Gollum says, he had only nine fingers

said Frodo. 'It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy'
'Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering.

The Black Gate is Closed; The Two Towers

This has already been discussed in some threads, like these ones :

If Sauron had succeeded.......

Sauron - Physical form in The War of the Ring or not?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

said Frodo. 'It was Isildur who cut off the finger of the Enemy' 'Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum shuddering.

I think that was a metophor, as the black hand refrence is refering to Saurons warmungery... or something like that, aka things like

"His arm has grown long indeed"

But as you say, it has been ducoused elsewhere.

[The Saucepan Man]

I imagine his spirit is just wafting around ME--I mean he can't go back to Valinor, he isn't cast into the void like Melkor....

In The Complete Tolkien Companion by JEA Tyler, it is said that, upon the destruction of the One Ring, Sauron "was cast into the void for ever and the fear of his domination was lifted from the World". Clearly that's not a primary source and it may well be wrong, but I do seem to recall reading some basis for it in Tolkien's works. I just can't recall where. Has anyone else come across anything which might suggest that Sauron was in fact cast into the void upon the Ring's destruction?

I say this; he took form as the necromancer, physical form. That dose not explain why he did not take a form when he returned to Mordor?

In The Letters of JRR Tolkien (which I am currently reading and would heartily recommend), JRRT said (in a footnote to Letter no 131):

It is only in the time between The Hobbit and its sequel that it is discovered that the Necromancer is Sauron Redivivus, growing swiftly to visible shape and power again. He escapes the vigilance and re-enters Mordor and the Dark Tower.

The references given in the link above confirm that Sauron did have physical form during the War of the Ring. But this letter suggests that he was not able to assume such form while residing incognito as the Necromancer of Dol Guldor.

As for the original question:

If the ring of power was destroyed, would not the power that Sauron put into then revert back to him?

Tolkien yet again provides the answer in Letter no 131 (this letter is essential reading for anyone interested in Tolkien's works as it provides the answers to so many questions frequently raised in this forum). He said, in reference to Sauron's "Ring strategy":

But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power ... pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished' ...

There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of his malicious will.

In other words, the Ring represented a large part of Sauron's power - power which he could draw on even when the Ring was not in his possession. But when it was eventually destroyed, that power was destroyed with it and the residual power left to Sauron was so little as to effectively render him 'powerless'.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I think we should all thank The Saucepan Man for all that hard work and investigation.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Has anyone else come across anything which might suggest that Sauron was in fact cast into the void upon the Ring's destruction?

Saucepan Man, there are at least two places in which this is suggested . The first one, when Gandalf talks to the Witch King in Minas Tirith:

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

The Siege of Gondor; The Return of the King

And the second one, in the last words of the Valaquenta:

But in after years he (Sauron) rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void

Of the Enemies; Valaquenta

The first quote suggests that the Witch King was also cast into the Void, after the destruction of the Ring

Wow, I was off on the wrong track. I had imagined Sauron wafting around ME- like Saruman (he is wafting-isn't he....? )and I was thinking the void was reserved for evil Valar. Thanks so much for the quotes.
Roxbury

[davem]

For what its worth, I go along with Lyta here. My own understanding is that the evil focussed in the Ring is disipated throughout Middle Earth - evil clearly isn't brought to an end forever with its destruction. Perhaps Frodo thought it would be, which may explain the devastating shock he experienced on returning to the Shire, to find evil still present in the world. Even after his hellish struggle he still finds evil 'alive' & well in the place he sacrificed so much to save.

I suppose that Tolkien was simply making the point that evil objects can be destroyed, but Evil itself cannot - at least not by men. The battle against evil becomes in some way more difficult after the fall of Sauron & the destruction of the Ring, because while they existed at least you knew where the source of evil was, once they were destroyed you would have to be constantly 'looking over your shoulder' because it could be anywhere.

[The Saucepan Man]

I think we should all thank The Saucepan Man for all that hard work and investigation.

Most kind, Hookbill, but there's no need. I am currently reading (and thoroughly enjoying) the Letters and so had just come across those quotes by happy accident.

Thanks, Amarie, for the quotes concerning Sauron's fate. While the first might be construed as a mere threat by Gandalf to the Witch King, the second certainly seems to suggest that Sauron ended up with his Master in the void.

My own understanding is that the evil focussed in the Ring is disipated throughout Middle Earth - evil clearly isn't brought to an end forever with its destruction.

Evil will always be present in Arda because it is a world marred by Morgoth and thereby tainted with evil. That would have been the case regardless of the creation (and destruction) of the One Ring.

As far as the One Ring is concerned, I suppose we must distinguish between its power and its will. Its power clearly was destroyed along with it, since Sauron's powers are "diminished to vanishing point" by its destruction. But the Ring had a will too, albeit that this was originally a part of Sauron's own will. I would speculate that, upon its destruction, the will of the Ring would merge once again with Sauron's spirit (consigned, on the basis of the quotes supplied by Amarie) to the void.

But it was not the preservation of the Ring's evil will which led to the continued existence of evil in Arda. That state of affairs had been brought about a long time previously by Morgoth.

[Tharlionglin]

I believe that when the ring was destroyed and Sauron, lost a hold of his physical form of the eye, he rose as a cloud of darkness and was blown away by a wind from the west, but I'm not a 100% sure.

My feeling is that like blowing a pile of sand out of your hand you cannot see the sand and where it lands but it is there none the less. Although not a focused entity, the evil that Sauron put into peoples hearts was still there none the less.

Even if Aragorn hunted down and slayed each and every creature touched by Sauron before his demise, the taint would still be created anew by the blowing of his darkness in the world.

Perhaps this is the will of Iluvater that nothing remains unsullied, including Valinor, and nothing is completely evil anymore either. The peoples of Middle-Earth had seen plenty of both, and been influenced by both, and now have the choice to make themselves.

[Orcrist]

its an interetsing point but as you say, the embodiment of sauron would be destroyed. isnt that what happened when the ring was cut from his finger? destroying the ring would not do the same thing as him losing it because they are 2 different things. the same thing should not happen in two almost opposite situations