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08-16-2002, 02:55 PM | #1 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Would Arwen's children get a choice between mortality and immortality?
My friend asked me the other day if, since Arwen got a choice whether or not to kep her immortality, then would her children also get the same choice? So, could some of Arwen and Aragorn's children be mortal, while the other would be immortal? Tolkien never really seems to answer this question inhis books, so I ws wondering if any of you could help me. Thanks!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
[ August 16, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]
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08-16-2002, 03:16 PM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Hmmm, good question. Arwen did have a choice, she could either stay imortal or she could become mortel and marry Aragorn. I don't think that there kids had a choice because both parents were mortals. If you know about Elros, Elrond's brother, he and Elrond are both half elven, they both had a choice, Elrond chose elf and Elros chose man. Elros' decendence where the numenoreans. They could not choose but they had longer life then most men.
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08-16-2002, 03:20 PM | #3 |
Dread Horseman
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Good question, and an answer that I would tend to agree with. Just noting here that I rewrote your subject line, Galadel, to make it more indicative of the contents of the thread.
General subject lines like, "Why?" and "I have a question" should be avoided. |
08-16-2002, 03:23 PM | #4 |
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Personally I do not believe that their children would have the choice of immortality. I think it possible however that because of the elven blood in both Aragorn and Arwen, and the blood of the Numenor, that the children would be given longer life than most, although not to the extent that Aragorn had...
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08-16-2002, 05:48 PM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well, they might actually live longer, because Arwen in half elf. Wouldn't it be the same sort of thing as what happend to Elros? Elros' kids lived even longer as Aragorn. What do you think? Is it writen anywhere how long Aragorn's kids lived?
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10-18-2002, 08:00 PM | #6 |
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Arwen was sprung by Elrond and Galadriel...then why would she be half elf? I belive that their children wouldn't have the choice of immortality becuase Arwen chose not to be immortal and Aragorn was GRANTED to have a longer life and he grew up as Elrond's son when his mother ran to Rivendell for refuge if thats what you call it.
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10-19-2002, 01:38 AM | #7 |
Wight
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Sprung? Galadriel? Gayametwen, it sounds like you're trying to say that Arwen is the daughter of Elrond and Galadriel, which is only remotely true in a technical sense, since Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother.
Arwen would actually be 3/4 Elf, since Elrond was Half-Elven and Celebrian was a full Elf. Arwen's children would most likely have very long lifespans (certainly longer than Aragorn's), but they would be completely mortal and have no choice about it.
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10-19-2002, 09:00 AM | #8 |
Animated Skeleton
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Elrond i called Half-elf in the book, yes, but he once was allowed a chice, Mortal or elven, and he chose Elven. So in my opinion Arwen is 100% elf.
Elros and Aragorn are of the same blood, long-living humans. But I think Elros married a "normal" human woman, not a converted elf. So technically, Aragorn's children should live longer then the first kings of Numenor, and Aragorn himself, put personally, I don't think so. Long before, Luthien elf married Beren man and chose to be a mortal. Does anyone know how long their children lived? I think Beren 's lifespan was that of a normal human. That hewas sent back from the dead might complicate things.
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10-19-2002, 10:59 AM | #9 | |
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Quote:
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10-20-2002, 03:18 AM | #10 |
Haunting Spirit
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Why was that choice actually given to Elrond's children? For Elros chose to be a Man, and no choice was given to his children, so why to Elrond's?
Actually, it's strange, that the elves, due to their love, were always allowed to become mortals, like Lúthien, and therefore they were given more changes than Men, who were mortals and could not become anything else. Ilúvatar and the valar didn't care very much about the Men, it seems [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
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10-20-2002, 09:52 PM | #11 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Elves were not always allowed to become mortal, it only happened twice. The first time was Luthien, the second time was Arwen. Although for Arwen, she was never a full elf as she hadn't made a choice as to what kindred she would belong to, so her choice to become mortal wasn't really giving up her immortality as it was only a temporary gift until she made the choice.
Also the comment that men were never able to become immortal isn't fully true either. Tuor, the father of Earendil, was able to become immortal after marrying Idril daughter of Turgon. That was probably also due to the fact he was chosen by Ulmo, but after going into the west he was granted immortality and counted among the elven race.
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10-21-2002, 10:42 AM | #12 | |
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Quote:
[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: vanwalossien ]
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10-21-2002, 10:45 AM | #13 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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As for Arwen's children, I think the same rule apply to them as to Elros' children, they would be mortal. Because their parents are a human and a half-elf living a mortal life. With two mortal parents, how could they be immortal?
[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: vanwalossien ]
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10-29-2002, 08:25 AM | #14 |
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In 'The Passing Of The Grey Company' Elrohir and Elladan are described as 'men'. Why is this? They were particularly friendly to the race of Men but they had lived for over a thousand years each hadn't they?
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10-29-2002, 08:45 AM | #15 |
Deadnight Chanter
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the reference concerns their manhood i.e bearing and appearance characteristics of a male. Nazgul in the movie refer to Arwen as "she-elf", but I don't think term "he-elf" would have been appropriate to describe Elladan and Elrohir
Still more their choice was not yet made either
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10-29-2002, 04:23 PM | #16 |
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3 quarters immortal.
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10-30-2002, 05:59 AM | #17 |
Auspicious Wraith
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Isn't that basically having the best of both worlds? Live as long as you want to, and then when you get weary of the world choose to be Human, and die?
Elladan and Elrohir were finding loopholes if you ask me.
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10-30-2002, 07:21 AM | #18 |
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I do not think that the term half-elven was in reference to the fraction of Elven in the bloodline, Elrond and his brother were more than half, yet they were considered half. It would seem that it was meant of Elven and another race, which even Luthian would be half-elven. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
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10-30-2002, 10:21 AM | #19 | |||||||
A Northern Soul
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Elrian is right. Luthien was half-elven, as was Dior Eluchíl, Elwing, and Eärendil. The choice was not granted until Elros and Elrond, and is not mentioned further than Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen.
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Letter No. 154: Quote:
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About Aragorn/Arwen's daughters and Eldarion, nothing points toward them having the choice. The choice of the half-elven certainly could not go on forever in accordance with what Tolkien wrote about Eru and the Valar, mortality and immortality, and elves and men (Letter No. 153): Quote:
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About their privelege to delay the choice - they could only delay it for an indefinite amount of time after Elrond's parting. It does seem a bit unfair, but that's how Tolkien decided it should be. A little removed from the point of discussion, but interesting still (to me anyway) is the half-elven ancestry: I have written it out here. (That link is broken now...I don't know how it was deleted.) It is not possible to determine their exact proportions of race since certain Elven maids' origins are not given (Elenwë, Olwë/Eärwen's unnamed wife/mother, Elmo's unnamed wife, Galadhon's unnamed wife, and Fingoflin's unnamed wife). As it stands with my assumptions that these maids were 100% elven (as whatever kindred they are mentioned as), Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir were 2/64 Maia, 12/64 Man, 34/64 Sindar, 11/64 Noldor, 5/64 Vanyar [50/64 Elven, 52/64 Immortal]. Arwen's make-up is thus 0.78125 elven.
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10-31-2002, 05:24 PM | #20 | |
A Northern Soul
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Ah ha!
This is why Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen get the choice: their mother is Elvish. Letter No. 153: Quote:
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11-05-2002, 05:36 PM | #21 |
Haunting Spirit
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Earnedil made this choice, and he chose the to be of the first people for the sake of his wife. His children were also given this choice: Elros chose mortality and founded a kingdom. Elrond chose to be an elf (half-elven only refers to his heritage- he was around from near the end of the first age), but it had a hitch- when the time came, his children would have to choose between accompanying him to Aman, or forsake their immortality and stay behind. Arwen forsook her immortality when she chose Aragorn, just as her foremother had done ages before. Thus they were both like the Numenoreans of old, living lives longer than most of the past kings of Gondor, but nevertheless mortal. Their children would likely be similar in lifespan.
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11-05-2002, 06:12 PM | #22 |
Haunting Spirit
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So let me get this straight... Arwen, being 'half-elven' gets to choose, but her children, even though they have elven blood, do not get to choose?
Also, *is confused* I don't get this spontaneous-deciding-to-be-mortal thing. How is it possible just to choose one day? Does it just happen, or do they go through some sort of ceremony? I know this is Middle Earth, but Tolkien seemed to be very particular about such things. I don't see how the power of thought/decision could alter a life span or biological makeup. Where does the forsaken immortality go?
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09-02-2003, 06:41 PM | #23 |
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I think it would only make sense that Arwen and Aragorn's children would all be allowed to choose a life of immortality or mortality. All, that is, except for their son Eldarion, who, I believe, was bound to the line of Men being the heir to the throne of Gondor. Since Arwen is 3/4 Elvish and Aragorn has Elvish blood (albeit a minute amount) I do not see why their daughters could not choose immortality.
Now that I argue this point, I reach a counterargument in my mind, which is that all of Aragorn's children would be bound up in the bloodline of the King of Men, and thus would be bound to the Fate of Men. I suppose arguments can be made for both sides.
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09-02-2003, 07:14 PM | #24 |
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Personally, I can't see any argument for the children of Aragorn and Arwen being given a choice. Arwen chose mortality before giving birth. They were therefore the children of two mortals.
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09-03-2003, 11:02 AM | #25 |
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If the decendents of Arwen had a choice then so would the decendents of Elros. The decendents of Elros did not have a choice, so neither would the decendents of Arwen.
QED Knowledge of fractions doesn't enter into it. H.C. [ September 03, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]
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09-03-2003, 01:01 PM | #26 | |
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09-03-2003, 02:01 PM | #27 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The answer can be quite simple and logical really. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Arwen chose Mortality, and wed a mortal, Aragorn. Thus, both were mortal, and so therefore, were their descendants. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Hope that helped...
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09-03-2003, 11:56 PM | #28 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Arwen's children would have lived longer than other people but they would have died, I was reading this somewhere. Think of Elros, his children all died, they didnot have the choice, but Elrond's children did because he chose to live the life of an elf, but he was still Half or part elf part man. Think about it Aragorn is a decendant or Elros, he lives longer than other men but he still grows old and dies. ( Elrond and Elros were btothers by the way) So I donot think that the children of Arwen and Aragorn could make the choice because their mother made it for them in her mortality.
You all should relly read the Letters of Tolkien.
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10-07-2003, 01:32 PM | #29 |
Wight
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Arwen made her childrens decision for them. She chose mortality therefore her children would be mortal.
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11-28-2004, 08:47 AM | #30 |
Haunting Spirit
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I personnaly also think they would not get a choice,bacause Arwen chose mortality and Aragorn is also a mortal,so they would probably also be mortals who would live as long as Aragorn.
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