Gothmog

I don't understand how Gothmog took over after the Witch King of Angmar died. Wasn't Gothmog a balrog in the first or second age? Please explain what happened.

[lord of dor-lomin]

A search of old threads would yield all the answers you need, but I'll summarize.

There's two Gothmogs.

1. A balrog that Ecthelion killed.

2. A bad man who rose to power among Sauron's forces around the time of the war of the ring.

There's two. That answer your question?

Yea now i get it thanks

[Inderjit Sanghera]

We don't actually know who the second Gothmog is. He could have been a Orc captain, a man or maybe even a Boldog (Lesser powerful Maia who took the shapes of Orcs) and some claim he was a Nazgul.

[the phantom]

Actually, (and I can't remember where right now, and I don't have time to look, it might've been in the appendices? or maybe even in LOTR text?) I recall reading that the second Gothmog was in fact a man.

[HCIsland]

Yup, I'm pretty sure that's right in the text of LoTR.

H.C.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Nowhere in LotR is it specified. He is only mentioned once, as the "Lieutenant of Minas Morgul" (the Witch-king was the "Captain of Minas Morgul"). I personally think that he was the third Nazgûl (after the Witch-king and Khamûl, who was the Captain or Lieutenant of Dol Guldur).

[the phantom]

This is from ROTK...

"The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: ‘I am the Mouth of Sauron.’ But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron’s domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord’s favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc."

He's a man. A black Numenorean to be specific.

Where does it say that the mouth of sauron is Gothmog? They say that his name has been forgotten.

[Legolas]

the phantom - Gothmog and the Mouth of Sauron are not the same person.

Tolkien never said what Gothmog is.

I presume he is a man.

The Mouth of Sauron, a man, was Lieutenant of Barad-dur, so it seems likely that the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul, Gothmog, would be a man too. Someone to watch over the tower when the Nazgul went out galivanting.

These points have been discussed numerous times. If you use the search function of this forum (found in the upper right corner with the links to the faq, forum home, et. al), you'll find discussions of Gothmog.

[ January 16, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[lord of dor-lomin]

Hey Legalos, I went by the phantom's house today. He sends his apologies on his oversight. He just had six wisdom teeth (yes, he has, or had, six) removed on Tuesday. He was so baked from the drugs they gave him that he got Gothmog and The Mouth of Sauron confused on his first post, and when he went back to post the next day he thought he remembered that the topic actually WAS the Mouth of Sauron instead of Gothmog.

I made him promise 1) he'd read a thread carefully before posting and 2) he'd NEVER post when he can't stay awake or remember what his name is. (lol, when I called him after his operation and he said "Hello", I said "Is that you, Philip" and he said "Philip? Um...oh yeah, yeah, that's me.")

Sorry, phantom, but I couldn't help myself!! (And I told everyone in our classes that we got in a fight and I kicked your butt and that's why you're gone and you're gonna show up with a swollen mouth!! Ha ha!!)