The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > Novices and Newcomers
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-07-2003, 08:12 AM   #1
ElvenDragon
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
The Eye I feel that its sad that Tolkien had no room for good Dragons in middle earth

=( *sigh* It would have been so cool if there were good dragons who helped out the fellowship! =D What thinks you?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 09:09 AM   #2
The Barrow-Wight
Night In Wight Satin
 
The Barrow-Wight's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,043
The Barrow-Wight is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting

Though a 'good' dragon might have been interesting, it just wasn't all that possible. I think you should start with the nature of dragons in Middle-earth to see why they weren't good. Read our Dragon Theme.
__________________
The Barrow-Wight
The Barrow-Wight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 09:59 AM   #3
Niluial
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Niluial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In the darkness of white
Posts: 601
Niluial has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Niluial Send a message via MSN to Niluial
Sting

I like middle-earth the way it is. I am certain Tolkien had reasons to why he did not put good Dragons in middle-earth. Dragons are considered monster like and wicked.. I don’t really think a good dragon would fit the profile… just my opinion. I am sure you get good Dragons in other books.. just not in Middle-Earth.. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
Life is not about how many breaths you take but about how many times it leaves you breathless.
My rants, moans and groans in other words my Blog
My Magical Site
Niluial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 01:09 PM   #4
Meela
Denethor's True Love
 
Meela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... *swoon*
Posts: 2,049
Meela has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Good dragons = good idea.
It is a shame that they weren't featured in Lotr, but evil dragons are just as good. At least Tolkien didn't leave out dragons altogether.
__________________
'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age?
2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.
Meela is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 01:31 PM   #5
Iarwain
Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Birnham Wood
Posts: 800
Iarwain has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Though not in Middle-Earth, Farmer Giles did have dealings with a fairly pleasant dragon. If I could type his name I would, but that is probably one of the most daunting names I've read. Chrysophylax, I think...

Iarwain
__________________
"And what are oaths but words we say to God?"
Iarwain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 01:53 PM   #6
Annalaliath
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Annalaliath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 380
Annalaliath has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Annalaliath Send a message via Yahoo to Annalaliath
Sting

I think that the "good" dragon idea would not be Middle Earth. Realy! I do think that that is more Dragon lance.But anyway, they(dragons) were created by Melkor(more like corupted somethings) just like Balrogs, Trolls, orcs, and Goblins. So there was no way that there could have been any 'good' dragons in Middle Earth.

I rest my case.
__________________
Bloody Stumps!!!
Annalaliath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 02:48 PM   #7
Sapphire_Flame
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Sapphire_Flame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The World That Never Was
Posts: 1,232
Sapphire_Flame has just left Hobbiton.
The Eye

I concur. Dragons were created by Melkor, and so would be inherently evil. Those dragons mentioned by Tolkien (Smaug, Glaurung, etc.) certainly prove that point. Personally, I find evil dragons just as facsinating as good dragons; evil dragons have fewer qualms about destroying villages and such, which is much more interesting than good dragons trying not to burn innocent people. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] But that's just me. I am unaccountably fond of evil creatures (dragons, giant spiders, Uruk-hai, xenomorphs...)
__________________
The Hitchhiking Ghost
Sapphire_Flame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 02:49 PM   #8
Noxomanus
Wight
 
Noxomanus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 233
Noxomanus has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

But couldn't all evil be redeemed?
__________________
Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't
Noxomanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 05:26 PM   #9
Annalaliath
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Annalaliath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 380
Annalaliath has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Annalaliath Send a message via Yahoo to Annalaliath
Sting

Um this is Middle Earth, not our world. In Middle earth these evil and perverted 'creations' were not able to be changed. They tended to like their evil tendancies. Also the creations of Melkor are not redeamable. Only the children of Iluvatar and his creations. Although this brings in a totaly differnt topic.
__________________
Bloody Stumps!!!
Annalaliath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 05:40 PM   #10
Noxomanus
Wight
 
Noxomanus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 233
Noxomanus has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

wasn't there this discussion the other day about orcs actually being redeemable?
__________________
Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't
Noxomanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 05:47 PM   #11
Sapphire_Flame
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Sapphire_Flame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The World That Never Was
Posts: 1,232
Sapphire_Flame has just left Hobbiton.
The Eye

I think so, Nox. Check with the Search function. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
The Hitchhiking Ghost
Sapphire_Flame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2003, 07:11 PM   #12
Lindril Arvilya
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: In a box at the end of Harrison Ford's street, with a pair of binoculars
Posts: 332
Lindril Arvilya has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
But couldn't all evil be redeemed?
You've been watching too much Star Wars.

There always has to be a few distinctive baddies that cannot be confused with the good ones. Big, scaly, fire-breathing, short-tempered, eats small creatures... kinda fit the bill?
__________________
Neo, watch out! Trinity's going to steal your pants! Pants thief! Pants thief!
Lindril Arvilya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2003, 01:00 AM   #13
Niluial
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Niluial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In the darkness of white
Posts: 601
Niluial has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Niluial Send a message via MSN to Niluial
Thumbs up

Quote:
There always has to be a few distinctive baddies that cannot be confused with the good ones. Big, scaly, fire-breathing, short-tempered, eats small creatures... kinda fit the bill?
I could not agree anymore!!

But come on.. what would Middle-earth be without our atrocious, ravenous, bloodcurdling, fire breathing friends?......

[ June 08, 2003: Message edited by: Niluial ]
__________________
Life is not about how many breaths you take but about how many times it leaves you breathless.
My rants, moans and groans in other words my Blog
My Magical Site
Niluial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2003, 01:12 AM   #14
Annalaliath
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Annalaliath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 380
Annalaliath has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Annalaliath Send a message via Yahoo to Annalaliath
Sting

Boring that is what it would be without the dragons!!!!! I mean there are so many good guys that need redeeming that there had got to be the bad guy who don't want it. Not to mention what would it be like if Bilbo sat dewn to afternoon tea with Smaug?
__________________
Bloody Stumps!!!
Annalaliath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2003, 01:25 AM   #15
Niluial
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Niluial's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In the darkness of white
Posts: 601
Niluial has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Niluial Send a message via MSN to Niluial
Sting

Quote:
Boring that is what it would be without the dragons!!!!! I mean there are so many good guys that need redeeming that there had got to be the bad guy who don't want it. Not to mention what would it be like if Bilbo sat dewn to afternoon tea with Smaug?
Excellent point! And it is so true; there would be no action without the evil dragon, just plain dull. And like you said, there are enough good guys! Just my perspective...
__________________
Life is not about how many breaths you take but about how many times it leaves you breathless.
My rants, moans and groans in other words my Blog
My Magical Site
Niluial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2003, 03:02 PM   #16
Manardariel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 807
Manardariel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Though I love Dragons, you have to remeber Tolkien was writing in the spirit of mythology. And there, dragons are not good. Knights go out to kill them, so they can marry their beloved princess. (Of course, unless the dragon is a GIRL dragon...and the kight all green and stinky [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) But, like I said, it wouldn´t have fitted.
__________________
Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)|FanFicDream City
Manardariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2003, 03:14 PM   #17
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Silmaril

Hmmm, Manardariel, girl dragons and green knights - whatever could you be talking about? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2003, 03:52 PM   #18
Lush
Fair and Cold
 
Lush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the big onion
Posts: 1,770
Lush is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to Lush Send a message via AIM to Lush Send a message via Yahoo to Lush
Sting

No room for good spiders either! Tsk.
__________________
~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~
Lush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2003, 01:57 PM   #19
Sapphire_Flame
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Sapphire_Flame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The World That Never Was
Posts: 1,232
Sapphire_Flame has just left Hobbiton.
The Eye

Quote:
No room for good spiders either!
Now that's a real shame. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I dunno. Evil dragons and spiders add a sort of, shall we say, interesting quality to Middle-earth. I mean, how fun could it have been with only good dragons and other creepy things? Think about it......
__________________
The Hitchhiking Ghost
Sapphire_Flame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2003, 02:28 PM   #20
Yavanna228
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: on the wings of the morning
Posts: 394
Yavanna228 has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

I am probably having a mental lapse here, but if Melkor could not 'create' things in the truest sense of the word, only twist and corrupt things already in existence, what are dragons from? Feel free to beat me up for my ignorance. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Peace
__________________
'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!'
Yavanna228 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2003, 02:30 PM   #21
Noxomanus
Wight
 
Noxomanus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 233
Noxomanus has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I believe he bred them from crocs or monitor-lizards or something. Too bad those don't seem to exist in ME (or at least the northern lands)
__________________
Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't
Noxomanus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2003, 02:32 PM   #22
Mahal
Haunting Spirit
 
Mahal's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Paradox Realm
Posts: 66
Mahal has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Mahal
Sting

I think they were added with the music of Melkor...because then he could create things for the world...just like ents and beasts.
__________________
A new technology does not add or substract something. It changes everything.
Mahal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2003, 03:18 PM   #23
Amanaduial the archer
Shadow of Starlight
 
Amanaduial the archer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: dancing among the ledgerlines...
Posts: 2,347
Amanaduial the archer has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Amanaduial the archer
Eye

It would be like having good balrogs. Just not right. And with wings [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] .
__________________
I am what I was, a harmless little devil
Amanaduial the archer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2003, 06:26 PM   #24
Annalaliath
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Annalaliath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 380
Annalaliath has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Annalaliath Send a message via Yahoo to Annalaliath
Sting

And skin.... Let us just say for the sake of those who wonder. They were evil from time in memorial and so in the end they don't want to be good.
__________________
Bloody Stumps!!!
Annalaliath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2003, 01:41 PM   #25
Aragost
Wight
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Arthedain
Posts: 137
Aragost has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Aragost
Sting

Good Dragons?, and I'm going apple picking with Scooby-Doo

No Room for Good Spiders Either Even if there was room Tolkien would not have put them in. If I remember corectly he did not like spiders because he was bitten by one in the family garden as a child.
__________________
Where there's a whip there's a will
Aragost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2003, 10:37 AM   #26
BobTheGrey
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Pipe

Having good spiders is just wrong. Imagine a huge spider that can talk. It eats humans, elves, hobbits and such. Now can you imagine such a creature being all cute and cuddely. Even if it didn't eat people it still would be a horrifying creature. Big spiders that can talk are not good! Okay I've calmed down now. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I just don't like spiders.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2003, 12:51 PM   #27
Annalaliath
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Annalaliath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 380
Annalaliath has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Annalaliath Send a message via Yahoo to Annalaliath
Sting

Did you know that spiders live on an all liquid diet. They have to inject their poison into the prey to predigest it.

Okay after that gross out, I would say that(no matter how much I love spiders)the spiders and the dragons both were all evil. The way that Melkor and all had corrupted them lead them to the point where they did not want to be redeemed. Shelob and her children(who she tended to eat) were all evil, she did not want to be good, after all she vomited darkness. Her children, many monsters and spiders, would not want to be good because they were evil. And after all this is not Disney(or Big Idea). I could go on about this for days repeating myself in different ways, but this has all been said before, hasn't it?
__________________
Bloody Stumps!!!
Annalaliath is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:38 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.