What would Arwen's baby look like?

[Quirkette]

Can Arwen have Aragorn's child, since they are both 2 different species of humanoid? Would the baby have pointed ears? Would his/her hair be pretty like Arwen's, or would it need constant combing all the time like Aragorn's hair?

If it is in the appendix or something that they did/didn't reproduce, let me know.

[Elennar Starfire]

In answer to the question "Is it possible?" Yes. Elrond is actually half-elven, so obviously elves and humans can crossbreed. As to what the baby would look like, that is a harder question.

[Sharkû]

They had one son (Eldarion, see appendices) and a couple of unnamed daughters.
As for what they looked like, I'd like to reiterate the point that the Quendi don't really have 'pointed ears' -- unless, in Middle-earth, Men had them too, since they are physically the same. But that is another matter... the search function should help.
Aragorn was, if at all, described as very fair and noble, so I doubt he had 'bad hair'.

[Quirkette]

Thank you very much for answering my question. I thought I had posted it in Middle Earth Mirth, but I am pleased it ended up in this category, for I have received a serious answer and not a farcical one! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And to think I thought I had the knack for this forum! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Sharkû]

Believe me, you wouldn't want to have seen the answers to the question what Arwen's and Aragorn's baby would look like had the thread remained in Mirth.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

There is a character called Eldarion on the ROTK cast list. It has yet to be seen if this character is actually going to be Aragorn's and Arwen's son in the movie but in my opinion the chances are good that he will be. So we will soon find out what Eldarion looks like according to PJ, maybe.

[Legolas]

If anything, I imagine it's an infant.

[Eggy]

i was wondering since the choise of kindreds was given to Elronds daughter will it be given to his grandchildren(ie Arwen and Aragorn's son and daughters)

[Legolas]

No. This has been covered multiple times as well as being addressed in a Middle-earth FAQ entry on this site.

Arwen was given the choice because with her mother being wholly elven, she received a new Elvish strain. The case of Aragorn and Arwen is the case of a mortal marrying another mortal. Their children would not have a choice just as the children of Elros did not have a choice.

[Lord Elrond]

I don't believe the choice of the kindreds passed down to the third generation. Elrond had a choice. Arwen did not have a choice to be mortal she had a choice to remain with the mortals. She was an elf as were Elronds sons. Another point is that nowhere did it say that Elros's offspring had a choice. I belive that it was only Elrond and Elros that were given the choice and nowhere does it state to my knowledge that Elronds offspring were given the choice to be men or elves, there is debate as to what became of his sons wether or not they passed to the undying lands or not but not as to wether or not they were given a choice.

[Sharkû]

Since you appear to be arguing against the FAQ article Legolas mentioned (and wrote), Lord Elrond, I would like to warn you that you are going up against a heap of source material from the author (such as Letters and he Appendices).

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

I thought someone said that in one of the Letters Tolkien stated that Elves have leaf-shaped ears...if that's true, I'm assuming he wasn't thinking of maple leaves. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
As for the baby...I don't know...would it be something to do with dominant and recessive alleles?

[Legolas]

No, because Arwen wasn't an elf.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I don't know why I am getting into this conversation but here is what I think and I really don't care if it is contradictory to some research for it is how I interperated the story. Elrond and Elros were given a choice. Since Elrond chose to stay with the elves his children were immortal because of his choice. I think I have read some place that the children of Elrond also had the choice but if they didn't Arwen really didn't make the choice to become mortal she just chose to marry one so she became mortal anyway. I think any elf would become mortal if they married one even if they had Elrond's choice or not.

[pandora]

What would Arwen's baby look like?

Winston Churchill. All babies look like Winston Churchill.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

here is what I think and I really don't care if it is contradictory to some research for it is how I interperated the story.

In that case, here's why you're wrong for the benefit of those people who do care about accuracy:

'"What is that doom?" said Aragorn.
'"That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar," answered Elrond, "and when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses."
"I see," said Aragorn, "that I have turned my eyes to a treasure no less dear than than the treasure of Thingol that Beren once desired. Such is my fate." Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth."
"Truly," said Elrond. "Soon as we account it, though many years of Men must still pass. But there will be no choice before Arwen, my beloved, unless you, Aragorn Arathorn's son, come between us and bring one of us, you or me, to a bitter parting beyond the end of the world..."

The quotation above is from Appendix A to The Lord of the Rings. Arwen must choose, as must all the Half-elven, whether she will accept the fate of the Elves or of Men. She chooses mortality because of her love for Aragorn, but she would have to make the choice even if she had never met him.

If this isn't enough, there is an example in the Silmarillion of an Elf who marries a Man and does not become mortal: Idril Celebrindal, the wife of Tuor and mother of Eärendil. She has no choice laid before her because she is of entirely Eldarin descent [not to mention that her family has had no special privilege granted - second edit].

Not being interested in what research may reveal does not, I'm afraid, prevent it from proving your opinion wrong; although I'd hardly call reading the books carefully 'research'.

[Second edit: my eccentric capitalisation of 'Half-elven' seems to have caused some confusion, so I've changed it to look more like a title.]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:04 PM December 07, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:36 PM December 09, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Silmiel of Imladris]

Yes I do remember that part and I said in my post that I could have been wrong. I knew I shouldn't have gotten myself into this conversation so I will forget about this completely. I bid you Namarie, I now depart. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[The Perky Ent]

Arwen's baby would like ugly!

[Quirkette]

Being someone who has read the books for the story, and did not delve into the appendices much, I am heartily sorry if my foolishness created any animosity. I wish someone would close this down! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

No need to apologize - this is a place for learning as well as discussion. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

Arwen must choose, as must all the half-Elven, whether she will accept the fate of the Elves or of Men.

But did the choice follow automatically on being Half-Elven? I thought that it was only bestowed by the will of Eru in recognition of great deeds done for the benefit of Middle-earth? Dior was Half-Elven, but no mention is made of whether he would have had a choice had he not been killed when he was. Earendil and Elwing are given the choice in recognition of their great deeds. And the choice falls to their children and to the children of those of their descendants (ie Elrond) who choose immortality.

But isn't there one example of a union between a Man and an Elf where no choice was given to their children? I thought that Prince Imrahil was descended from such a union, and yet his forbears were, to my knowledge, given no choice between mortality and immortality.

[Legolas]

Right, Saucepan Man. Manwe decreed that all beings with any mortal ancestry would be mortal by said ancestry.

[Everdawn]

Ok, now with everyone having said, now i have been wondering.

Would it be possible for an elf (man or woman)to marry a mortal and still remain immortal? What I suppose is do they have to choose at all?

The answer im feelibng will have something to do with the building of elven ships, but didnt Legolas build the last one for himself and Gimli after Aragorn died?

[The Saucepan Man]

Thanks Legolas. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Can anyone rememeber who the Elf/Man ancestors of Imrahil were, by the way?

Would it be possible for an elf (man or woman)to marry a mortal and still remain immortal?

Not only would it be possible, it would be the norm. Elves are immortal, and cannot become mortal save through the will of Eru. That occured only once as far as I am aware, in the case of Luthien (although she was half-Elf, half-Maia).

Read Legolas' article linked by Sharkû above. It really helps. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Sharkû]

Yes, it would be perfectly possible for an elf to marry a mortal and remain immortal, and the default case, just like Saucepan said. This was the crux of all elf/man marriages (all two of them). The other side of it, where it doesn't end well in some way would be the case of Andreth the Wisewoman and Aegnor in the First Age. Both were in love with each other, but both feared to make the move (cf. HoME X, 4).

A family tree of Dol Amroth is given in History of Middle-earth XII, 1, vii. The original ancestors of the house were Imrazôr the Númenorean and Mithrellas, a companion of Nimrodel. The elf/mortal marriage and half-elven question as regarding this case is not addressed there, however. Presumably, there was nothing special about this marriage because Mithrellas was of the 'lesser Silvan race', not of the Eldar. I seem to remember this was more or less discussed before, not necessarily satisfyingly.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

But did the choice follow automatically on being Half-Elven?

I think that this depends on one's definition of 'half-elven'. In Letter #345, Tolkien wrote: "Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven, who abandoned her elvish rights." but he does not qualify this description. Obviously there is more to being 'half-elven' in this context than simply having one elven and one human parent, and the following passage from the Silmarillion explains matters a bit more clearly.

It is told among the Elves that after Eärendil had departed, seeking Elwing his wife, Mandos spoke concerning the his fate; and he said: 'Shall mortal Man step living upon the undying lands, and yet live?'
But Ulmo said: 'For this he was born into the world. And say unto me: whether is he Eärendil Tuor's son of the line of Hador, or the son of Idril, Turgon's daughter, of the Elven-house of Finwë?' And Mandos answered: 'Equally the Noldor, who went wilfully into exile, may not return hither.'
But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement, and he said: 'In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged.'

Now, this passage still leaves us with a problem concerning Arwen: clearly those descendents of Eärendil and Elwing to whom Mandos is giving a choice are Elrond and Elros. No mention is made here of their descendents.

Fortunately Tolkien has resolved this issue as well. In Appendix A to The Lord of the Rings, he clarifies the whole issue. Having explained that "The sons of Eärendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or half-elven." he tells us:

At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.

Therefore, the choice of kindreds is offered only to the Half-elven, those being Elrond and Elros. The term extends to cover Elrond's children, but with a modification in the terms of the choice: their decision is whether or not to accompany their father, the choice of kindred following from the path taken. Presumably this privilege is granted to Elrond's children for two reasons: firstly because their father's choice of the fate of the Elves pre-dated their births; and secondly because they were descended from three senior Eldarin houses: from Olwë through Finarfin, Galadriel and Celebrían; from Elwë through Lúthien and Elwing, and from Finwë through Fingolfin and Idril.

My apologies to Sharkû, Legolas and Saucepan, who knew all of this already; but this is the Novices and Newcomers forum, so I thought I'd better clarify my terms a little. Obviously where I said 'half-elven' above I meant it in the sense that Tolkien meant it in his letter, not as a general term for those with parents of either kindred.

[The Saucepan Man]

Therefore, the choice of kindreds is offered only to the Half-elven, those being Elrond and Elros.

In other words, the choice is given to the Half-elven, and not simply to those who happen to be half-elven. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Well, if you must dumb it down... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]