The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-18-2003, 07:49 AM   #1
engwaalphiel
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The edge of nowhere
Posts: 89
engwaalphiel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting Links between characters. Why is tolkien different?

While writing a tiresome essay on Sherlock Holmes , I was asked to analyse links between Conan Doyle's characters . This brought me to thinking about Tolkien's "links" between his characters. One such link in Holmes is the links between Villian / Victim, Does Tolkien actually have a victim / villian relationship as such or is it more a balanced ecosystem of a story in which one changed decsision can change the path of the story ?

In many topics we have speculation on What would happen if ?
And the same answer occurs every time . If one thing hadn't have happened then neither would such and such leading on to such and such. What makes Tolkien's work (especially the link from silm to LOTR) so special. is it the non-definitve links between characters ? The eco-system he has created ?

Don't know if any of that made sense to anyone, it's just a thought.
__________________
Estel............. Some have it more than others.

"Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!
engwaalphiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2003, 08:46 AM   #2
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Pipe

It would help me if you were to give a specific example of how this works with Sherlock Holmes. Then I'd know how to apply the idea better to LotR et. al.
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2003, 09:27 AM   #3
engwaalphiel
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The edge of nowhere
Posts: 89
engwaalphiel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Cona Doyle likes to have a direct link between victim and villian. What I was wondering is do people see the same resembelence in Tolkien's work .
__________________
Estel............. Some have it more than others.

"Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!
engwaalphiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2003, 09:21 PM   #4
littlemanpoet
Itinerant Songster
 
littlemanpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.littlemanpoet is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Pipe

I was hoping for something a little more complete, but by direct link I suppose you mean that there was always a motive based on relationship? If so, the villains we can list are Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, the Witch King, and Gollum (the most complex and sympathetic villain) The victims? Well, there aren't victims of crimes, per se. However, Morgoth's enemy was Feanor, Sauron's was the line of Elros, Saruman's was Rohan and the Shire, the Witch King's was Arthedane, then the Ringbearer, and then Minas Tirith, and Gollum's was - um - Sauron or Frodo, interchangeably. Right?

Do you see direct connections between Villain and enemy? I do. I think it's inevitable in ANY story, actually, although I can see the link being indirect, such as between Sauron and Frodo. So perhaps it depends.
littlemanpoet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2003, 05:17 AM   #5
doug*platypus
Delver in the Deep
 
doug*platypus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Aotearoa
Posts: 960
doug*platypus has just left Hobbiton.
Shield

I wasn't very clear on the original post, either, but littlmanpoet seems to have cleared it up a little. I think that you'd first have to ask whether there were any singular victims in Arda, and if so who they were. I'm not sure how Arthur Conan Doyle defined his villains, but if it is by their deliberate harm of other humans, then it is in a different way to Tolkien. The villains of Middle-Earth are portrayed as despicable because of their attitudes and their actions, in general more than as directed at a single entity.

As an example, Saruman didn't particularly want to kill Théoden - the desire to do this was just a byproduct of his lust for power and control. He was not himself a murderer, but more of a commander.
Quote:
is it more a balanced ecosystem of a story
I've never heard literature compared to ecology before. That's... interesting?!
__________________
But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.
doug*platypus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:01 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.