Aragorn's Dilemma

[Mithadan]

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One of the most difficult choices made during LoTR is Aragorn's decision to pursue the captors of Merry and Pippin after the death of Boromir and the departure of Sam and Frodo. We all know it turned out OK, but wasn't it an abdication of Aragorn's responsibility to the primary task of the Fellowship? Gandalf was &quot;gone&quot;, Aragorn was now the leader, and Frodo and Sam had taken off with the Ring at a time when Aragorn knew there were orcs around, as well as Gollum. Shouldn't he have gone after the Ring, perhaps leaving the pursuit of the orcs to Legolas and Gimli?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

Aragorn was torn between seeking Sam and Frodo, who he knew were alive and (for the moment) unhindered, or pursuing the captors of Pippin and Merry, who were sure to kill the two young hobbits.

As far as the four hobbits concerned, pursing the latter pair was the obvious choice. But when
you consider the Quest, Aragorn had a much tougher descision. Were the lives of two hobbits more important than the Quest?

Remember, Aragorn's heart spoke clearly to him that the fate of the bearer was no longer in his hands. And in Middle-Earth, such intuition is often more than feeling from within. There is a great chance that, even as Gandalf spoke to Frodo on the Seat of Seeing, the wizard may have projected his thoughts on the matter towards the mind of Aragorn. Or even more likely, that ever-present but seldom-seen 'greater force' might have had a hand in the words of Aragorn's heart.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 85


I don't think even Gandalf knew what was the right choice in that case. So we have 'ever present greater force'. If you scan all the threads in LoTR, you will see that obviously Frodo and Sam where meant to do the thing alone, without help of any - Gandalf was put out in Moria, Boromir killed by orcs, Aragorn had to pursue Merry and Pippin's kidnappers. And whole affair was started by the same invisible force with the quest of Erebor and Bilbo. in UT Gandalf states, that he had no logical reason forcing Bilbo to go with the dwarves, but was inspired by some kind of intuition.

And, as a metter for new discussion, we may have some interesting parallel: Beren and Luthien - Frodo and Sam, Carcharoth - Gollum.

[Lady Eowyn]

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Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

I agree with all you guys. I just like to add this:
Aragorn didn't know when Frodo and Sam left.
Even if he would have gone after them (after the burial of Boromir)
do you think he would have gone the same way they did, and catch
up with them in all that mess?? I don't think so....
His decision to follow merry and pippin was right,
even though he didn't catch up with them either.
The danger merry and pippin were in was greater than that of
Frodo and Sam, even though they were on a very dangerous quest.
(no doubt about that)



And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

[Lady Eowyn]

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Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

I hope you get what I mean.
Merry and Pippin were already in the hands of orcs and
Frodo and Sam had a chance to get through without being
captured. I didn't mean to say that Frodo and Sam weren't in danger at all.
I, myself never questioned the decision Aragorn made, I always thought it was
the right thing for him to do....


And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

After all, this, what was the 'invisible force'? It obviously existed. Eru or the Valar, do you think?

</p>

[gamegie]

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Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

I see this as rather simple.

Aragorn had indeed two choices, either folow Frodo and Sam or try and rescue Merry and Pippin. But he undertood that Frodo was given the responsibility of the ring as opposed to himself whos destiny was to take him towards Minas Tirith.
So as Frodo had taken onto himself the responsibility of the ring, Aragorn had but to try and follow the Orcs which were heading if anything southwards.

</p>

[red]

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Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

Let's not forget that Frodo and Sam alone had more of a chance fulfilling this quest than if Aragorn had been with them. Even Gandalf said in the beginning that if Elrond had sent a mighty Elf-lord, he would have been of no use to the real purpose of the quest. Sam and Frodo's greatest ally was secrecy, not might. Aragorn would have hindered, not helped, most likely...at least once they got to Mordor itself.

-red

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 88

My apologies, Red, but can Ranger's company be considered hindrance? On the other hand, we missed important point - Aragorn's presence would have made Gollum's 'smeagolization', to coin the term, impossible, so we would not have him on Orodruin biting off Frodo's finger, and it might have ended in disaster.

[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

OK, now this goes back to a thread I was involved in months ago. Was Frodo supposed to merely bear the Ring or destroy it? Gandalf could not have foreseen that Smeagol/Gollum would bite off Frodo's finger. Nor could he realistically believed that Frodo could, of his own free will, cast the Ring into the Cracks of Doom (Frodo couldn't even toss it into the fireplace in Bag End and didn't want to show it to Bilbo at Rivendell). Isn't this one of the reasons to give Frodo companions, to assist or, if necessary, force him to part with the Ring? So,no Aragorn, no Smeagol, but Gollum wasn't intended to be part of the party anyway. Aragorn's responsibility was to the Quest. By abandoning Frodo and Sam to chase Merry and Pippin, Aragorn abandoned the Quest and deprived Frodo of needed assistance to destroy the Ring, absent the &quot;happenstance&quot; of Gollum's intervention. So I ask again, without benefit of hindsight, did Aragorn make the right decision?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000004>Mithadan </A> at: 10/13/00 3:09:29 pm

[HerenIstarion]

Haunting Spirit
Posts: 90

Frodo couldn't even toss it into the fireplace in Bag End and didn't want to show it to Bilbo at Rivendell

First of all, Frodo changed much since, he was supposed to change. Valar, and, therefore, Maiar, one of whom Gandalf was, can not predict Illuvatar's Children's behavior, they only deduct. On the other hand, it was Gandalf himself who opposed Frodo in conversation concerning Gollum, who, as Frodo said, deserved death.

Third, and most important of all - The burden of the Ring was not laid on Frodo by force, but by his own will, so nobody would have had right to force him to give it up, and, also, one taking the ring by force would have been presumably even less able to throw it into the fire than Frodo was

Aragorn was right in his choice

[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

I agree with much that has been said, particularly Kittle's point that Aragorn no doubt gave much weight to his &quot;intuition&quot; re: the fate of the Bearer being out of his hands. I think he was also aware that his destiny was pulling him towards Minas Tirith, as someone else pointed out. Did he peer into the Mirror of Galadriel during his stay in Lorien? Also, remember, there were practical considerations to rescuing Pippin and Merry -- as far as he knew, the Orcs who took them would head straight off to Mordor so that everything the two hobbits knew (which was much) could be extracted from them. This could have spelt disaster for the Quest.

I don't completely agree with this statement:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gandalf could not have foreseen that Smeagol/Gollum would bite off Frodo's finger.<hr></blockquote>
Gandalf seems to have had at least some vague feeling that Gollum would play a major part in the final act. He doesn't seem too put out at the Council of Elrond when he finds out that Gollum has escaped.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Well, well, he is gone,&quot; said Gandalf. &quot;We have no time to seek for him again. He must do what he will. But he may play a part yet that neither he nor Sauron have foreseen.&quot;<hr></blockquote>
This is uncharacteristic of Gandalf, who is well known for making sharp, wrathful comments when someone does something stupid or foolish. It's almost like when he hears this news, it &quot;clicks&quot; for him. Even if he isn't able to know the exact details, he clearly has some sense that Gollum will turn out to be an important component of the Quest.


</p>

[Lady Eowyn]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

You somewhat gotta agree with red about that Aragorn might have hindered them.
If Aragorn would have been with them, they would have never followed Gollum.
Who knows what might have happened then. Would Aragorn have taken the ring from
Frodo to throw it into the fire??? Or even kill Frodo to save everybody else??
And Aragorn's plan from the beginning was to go to Minas Tirith anyways.
That changed off course when Gandalf &quot;died&quot; in Moria, but still.
Think of the consequences if Aragorn would have gone with Frodo and Sam.
He defeated the Corsairs of Umbar and took their ships. He would have never
gotten to Minas Tirith and the city would have probably been lost without the
help he brought....

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

[dogtrot]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

and surely if aragorn(isuldur's heir) had ventured far into mordor eventually sauron would have seen him with the eye imo. his presence would have been felt at some point for sure before they ever reached mt. doom.

</p>

[gamegie]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

I agree with dogtrot, Aragorn could not have gone through Mordor unhindered. It would have been very difficult for Tolkien to make it realistic. Not forgetting what other feats Aragorn went through after making his difficult decision.

I don't actually think it was so difficult for Aragorn at all. He knew as well as Gandalf did that his job so as to speak was to accompany the ring part of the trip. His mission then diverging from Frodo's.

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[red]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

Another point to remember about Frodo and Sam in Mordor is their mistaken identity as orcs. If Aragorn had been with them, their cover would have been blown. Frodo and Sam's only true ally was secrecy and stealth. Aragorn would have made that impossible.

-red

</p>

[dogtrot]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

yep. in the end it comes down to the little folk to accomplish the greatest deed in the third age of midddle earth. aragorns destiny was elsewhere from the begining.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
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Re: Aragorn's Dilemma

HeeHee. Nothing stimulates a discussion like a controversial statement. What? Aragorn make a wrong decision? Impossible!

My personal view is that Aragorn ran into a true no win situation and made the best decision he was capable of making. It turned out to be a good or at least adequate decision for reasons generally having little to do with Aragorn, at least from the perspective of fulfilling the quest. While it could be argued that the decision he made was not the &quot;right&quot; one, it really shouldn't be argued that his decision was &quot;wrong&quot;.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Maédhros]

`He is debating which course is the most desperate, I think,' said Aragorn. 'And well he may. It is now more hopeless than ever for the Company to go east, since we have been tracked by Gollum, and must fear that the secret of our journey is already betrayed. But Minas Tirith is no nearer to the Fire and the destruction of the Burden.

`And so should I,' said Gimli. 'We, of course, were only sent to help the Bearer along the road, to go no further than we wished; and none of us is under any oath or command to seek Mount Doom. Hard was my parting from Lothlórien. Yet I have come so far, and I say this: now we have reached the last choice, it is clear to me that I cannot leave Frodo. I would choose Minas Tirith, but if he does not, then I follow him.'

'It would indeed be a betrayal, if we all left him,' said Aragorn. 'But if he goes east, then all need not go with him; nor do I think that all should. That venture is desperate: as much so for eight as for three or two, or one alone. If you would let me choose, then I should appoint three companions: Sam, who could not bear it otherwise; and Gimli; and myself. Boromir will return to his own city, where his father and his people need him; and with him the others should go, or at least Meriadoc and Peregrin, if Legolas is not willing to leave us.'

Based on the facts that Aragorn had at that moment, I think that he made a wrong and "illogical" decision. I think that if had spilt up the company say: Legolas and Gimli following the Orcs and M & P, and he himself to go after Sam and Frodo.
Aragorn knew that Gollum was following them. He knew that Gollum was "evil" and that he would hinder or even attack Frodo.
He abandoned the Quest to try and rescue two of his companions.
It doesn't make sense to me.

[Ravenna]

There's another side to the decision, that may or may not have influenced Aragorn.
Merry and Pippin were in the hands of orcs, some Saruman's and some Saurons. If they had been delivered to either of those alive, then eventually Sauron would have discovered that Frodo was taking the ring to the fire and would have put huge effort into tracking him down, How long do you think Frodo and Sam, with or without Gollum's help would have been able to evade capture? At least by following the younger hobbits, Aragorn was not only trying to save their lives, but also to prevent Sauron finding out what was going on before it was too late to stop it.

[*Varda*]

I don't think anyone can say Aragorn made the 'wrong' decision to go after Merry and Pippin. Although we know what happens next, so it's harder to imagine not knowing, Aragorn knew his destiny lay towards Minas Tirith not Mordor. His path went towards Gondor, not Mordor and he knew it. There were even prophecies about it, such as he had to walk the Paths of the Dead.

It could have been equally dangerous if Merry and Pippin had been taken to Saruman and everything had been found out about the Quest. And Aragorn probably felt they both had some part to play before the end.

And if Aragorn had gone with Frodo and Sam I'm sure the whole thing would have failed. I don't see how Sauron couldn't notice Isildur's heir walking into Mordor. And Minas Tirith would have been destroyed for sure.

But basically, even Gandalf didn't know what path they were going to take. All Aragorn could do was to make an educated guess.

[Maédhros]

And if Aragorn had gone with Frodo and Sam I'm sure the whole thing would have failed. I don't see how Sauron couldn't notice Isildur's heir walking into Mordor.

If I seem to remember correctly:

Now the flicker of approaching torches and the clink of steel ahead was very near. In a minute they would reach the top and be on him. He had taken too long in making up his mind, and now it was no good. How could he escape, or save himself, or save the Ring? The Ring. He was not aware of any thought or decision. He simply found himself drawing out the chain and taking the Ring in his hand. The head of the orc-company appeared in the Cleft right before him. Then he put it on.

So, if Sauron couldn't notice that Sam used the ring, why would he be able to locate the Heir of Isildur.

[O'Boile]

Ravenna you made a great point. I was tinking about it as I was reading all of the previous posts. Had Merry and Pippin been captured, they would have talked eventually (Pippin almost talks looking the Palantir). Knowing that the ring was coming to Mordor, Sauron would have just fortified Mt. Doom with thousands of Troops, and the ring would have been captured. Trying to prevent the capture of Merry and Pippin was the best thing he could have done to aid the quest, not to mention the honourable thing. Also, Gandalf himself mentions that it would have been a great blow if the orcs had mad it to Isengard. He mentions this to Theoden when discussing Eomer's pursuing the orcs against orders. "Members of the company, sharers of a secret hope..." is what he says.

[RiderOfRohan]

I think he made the right decision because if anyone else were to have come, the following MIGHT have occurred: gollum is killed before he guides,(and traps) them through Shelob's lair, Sauron would have noticed if Isildur's heir walked into Mordor, Sam might not have been able to rescue frodo, the eowyn and merry would've died, they wouldn't have met The White Rider, and Minas Tirith would've been lost.

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: RiderOfRohan ]

[amyrlis]

Could what Aragorn knew of the Ring "taking" Boromir have also influenced his decision? In his dying words, Boromir confessed to Aragorn his madness and actions to take the ring from Frodo. Could Aragorn have feared (as Frodo did) that the same may happen one by one to each of the Fellowship and that Frodo would be in as much danger from his campanions as from the Dark Lord himself? He may have thought it safer to allow Frodo & Sam to continue the journey without the others, including himself. Or, by knowing of Boromir's actions, Aragorn knows why Frodo has abandoned the Fellowship. He knows that Frodo will no longer feel safe around him or the others.

Also, (this is far fetched, but I'm trying to come up with reasons for his decision) there is the promise Aragorn makes to Boromir that the White City will not fall. Might this promise have swayed his decision and spurred him toward Minas Tirith? Perhaps he thought they could quickly rescue the hobbits then head south with speed. Aragorn had a duty to the quest, but as the heir to the throne of Gondor, he also has a duty to protect his kingdom.

Anyway, just some random thoughts from me! I do agree with the statements that Merry & Pippin being delivered to Saruman would have meant certain disaster for Sam & Frodo and whoever might have been with them.

[mark12_30]

I've got to review BW's point here:

Remember, Aragorn's heart spoke clearly to him that the fate of the bearer was no longer in his hands. And in Middle-Earth, such intuition is often more than feeling from within. ...Or even more likely, that ever-present but seldom-seen 'greater force' might have had a hand in the words of Aragorn's heart.

The reason I heartily agree with this is that Pippin ended up playing a decoy in what I think was an often overlooked manner. When Pippin looked into the Palantir, I believe that Sauron assumed that Pippin was the Ringbearer, that Saruman had caught him, and that Saruman had him look into the stone so that Sauron could send a Ringwraith to fetch him. In Sauron's mind, this places the Ring in the neighborhood of Orthanc.

Then Aragorn looks into the same Palantir, shows Sauron that Narsil has been reforged, and wrenches the Palantir from Sauron's grasp. Did that mean that as he took the palantir from whoever had control of the hobbit, did he also take the ring? Sauron had to worry about that; and the evidence shows that he did, indeed, worry about Aragorn, and mobilize against him.

All this was necessary to draw Sauron's attention far from his own borders so that a minor hubbub in Cirith Ungol would go unnoticed, and Gorgoroth would eventually be emptied out, and Frodo and Sam would be able to cross the plains.

So-- I think that Aragorn listened well to the supernatural voice leading him, and did what he was led to do. "My heart speaks clearly at last." Not, I'm picking the lesser of two evils; but, my heart speaks "clearly".

--Helen