What happened to Sam?

[Maikacairien]

At the end of LotR I kept on wonder ing what happened to Sam. Are there any other books Tolkien wrote about him? I don't really think there are but I'm still wondering. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Ravenna]

In the appendices at the end you will find that Sam had lots of children, became mayor of the Shire (several times), passed the Red Book on to his daughter Elanor, and then finally, after the death of his beloved Rose, passed over the sea to Valinor, the last of the Ringbearers to do so.

[Galorme]

And that is, what they say, a rap. Or is it?

Tolkein once said that when he said that the Ringbearers passed into the west he meant it to be ambigous whether they became immortal, as did the elves, or whether it merely meant they died and found peace. But it is told by the elves in the Akallabéth that if mortals went to Valinor they would die out, much like "a moth that flies too close to the flame". So what actually happened to all the Ringbearers (and Gimli, though one would assume that Aule would grant them longer life as he created them). Did they live forever in the bliss of Valinor as did Huor (though he actually became an Elf), perhaps the Ringbeares, not belonging to the age of the men became 4 foot elves themselves? Or did they die out like the metaphorical moth too soon in the bliss of Eldamar?

[burrahobbit]

He died.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Did they live forever in the bliss of Valinor as did Huor...

That's Tuor, not his dad Huor.

What happens to the Ringbearers is completely up to your imagination. It is said that if mortals enter into Aman, they will die like moths blah blah blah. But then again, has any mortal ever made it to Aman and recounted it to anyone on Middle Earth? No. So really, no one knows for sure.

I like this fact. It leaves the question not only open for debate, which I'm sure will occur after I post this, but it leaves a certain mystery to Tolkien's work. If you know everything that happens within the realm of Arda, what fun will it be anymore. It's that same thinking that kept Tolkien from publishing an official "Silmarillion" by his own hand. Christopher did so, but the Professor was a bit more weary.

I read somewhere that Tolkien believed that the magic behind the LotR was the depth that was there, the unseen but obvious history that was at the foundation of the storyline. Tolkien said that once this history was revealed, the magic would fade slightly.

Ok I'm ranting alot so I will stop.

But basically to answer your question, it's up to you.

[Galorme]

That was somewhat blunt and without explination. Care to elaberate on why he died? He could have lived on, it is said that the sailors who were trapped in Valinor will be trapped until the world is made anow, meaning they could live on forever. I am not taking sides on this one, as much as i would like to think they lived on i have only one piece of evidence for living and one for dying.

[burrahobbit]

Care to elaberate on why he died?

I think it might have something to do with him being mortal. Plus, Tolkien said so. In Letters.

[Galorme]

As far as i remember in the leters he said that he had left it deliberatly ambigous whether he died or went to valinor for healing. If i am wrong correct me (a quote would be nice i dont have the book with me like all my books it was borrowed).

I think it might have something to do with him being mortal.

There is no need to be offensive or condinsending, though re-reading my post it did seem a little confruntational. If so i'm sorry i did not mean it that way.

[burrahobbit]

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the
right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own
desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing. -- Letter 325

It was not my intention to be either offensive or condinsending, nor did your post seem the least bit confruntational. I like to use as few words as possible, if I can. Terse, succinct, concise.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Now I'm confused. The Valar couldn't 'confer immortality', even if Sauron could? Hmmm. (Stupid goodie-two-shoes.)

[Maédhros]

Now I'm confused. The Valar couldn't 'confer immortality', even if Sauron could? Hmmm.

Sauron could confer immortality, care to elaborate on that?

[burrahobbit]

Sauron could trap a spirit in a body, with mixed results.

[Rose Cotton]

Well it's not so bad. Even if they did die alot of religions will tell you they went onto mortal heaven. And from what I know it's a pritty nice place.

[Maikacairien]

Thanks! Thats very helpful. I like the idea of him living forever! And Frodo and Bilbo, of course! I think that they would've lived on and on because they just sortof had to go. That makes no sense. Oh-well. Now I'm starting to babble so I'll finish this post. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Susan Delgado]

My understanding is that all the mortals who went to Tol Eresea (since they could not go to Valinor) would die, but they could choose the time and circumstances.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own
desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

You actually just refutted yourself with that quote. It says they had the choice, "die at their own desire and of free will".

[burrahobbit]

Why does everyone always think that Tolkien was lying to them when he said stuff? Did you skip over the part that says "they would eventually pass away"?

[Galorme]

I think that the reason that they would die would not be because they were forced to, and that they could carry on living if they felt like it, but they would not, since, being mortal, they would tire of the world and give up their life of their own free will. This is not quite the same as men, as they become weary, but some, fearing death can choose not to give up life, but eventually death will take them.

It is said (somewhere [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) that even the Valar will become weary of the world and envy the gifts of men. To be hounist I am very happy with Burrahobbit's (well Tolkien') answer, as it means that the Ringbearers gained the bliss and long life of the elves without loosing the Gift of Eru (death). I supose this is how Tolkein rewarded them for all the nasty things he put them through.

Burrahobbit I like to put lots of examples and descriptions in my posts, as they are the kind of posts I like to read. Every man to their own.

[Arathiriel]

I personally do not know believe that neither Bilbo, Frodo, or Sam lived on forever even though they entered the Blessed Realm with the Elves...

Why do I think this?

Well just because they were allowed to live in Valinor were as no other mortals were allowed, I don't believe it meant that their mortality was taken away and immortality given to them by anyone.

This was granted, not even the Valar as I believe that only Eru could take away their mortality and give them the immortality He had granted to the Elves from the creation of Arda.

However as much as I don't think they lived on forever, I DO believe that Frodo and Sam DID see one another again! I REFUSE to believe that the last time they saw one another was at the Grey Havens!

I believe they were reunited and spent many years together in the Blessed Realm before they passed away....

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: Arathiriel ]

[burrahobbit]

I think that the reason that they would die would not be because they were forced to, and that they could carry on living if they felt like it, but they would not, since, being mortal, they would tire of the world and give up their life of their own free will. This is not quite the same as men, as they become weary, but some, fearing death can choose not to give up life, but eventually death will take them.

This is right and wrong at the same time. Hobbits are men, and as such they die no matter what. I'm sure they would get world-weary and die peacefully, but that isn't the point. If they didn't go peacefully they would be taken anyway.

long life

Not really. At least, not any longer than somebody like Aragorn. I really doubt that they lived more than a handful of years.

[Legolas]

Letter No. 154:

But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' – of free will, and leave the world.

More plainly, Letter No. 246

'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) – not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.

There is no reason to believe that Sam, Bilbo, or Gimli would suffer a different fate.

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Brionna]

So here's a question from a less versed LoTR fan. Do hobbits (or Men of ME for that matter) believe in an after-life? I know right now we're debating on whether the Ringbearers actually passed or not, but let's say they did. Was there something after the mortal world? I think someone may have touched on it, but I'm just wondering if this is something discussed by Tolkien.

[Galorme]

Well all that is known about the afterlike (providing the spirit was allowed to leave Ea) was that after the world was broken and made anew all of Fathers and Children of Men would sing in the Second Music of the Ainur. Also it is told that Túrin will come back from the dead to slay Morgoth for revenge. Apart from that none know where Men go, except Eru, Mandos and Manwe.

[galadriel'smaiden]

Well, I think Sam probably did eventually die, but if you think about it, would you want to go on forever? I like to think he simply went to sleep and did'nt wake up after going to the grey havens

[Matthew2754]

Thirteen kids! Poor Rosie.

[Taure Leafsilver]

I'm with Maikacairien! What is not written is up to the reader! well that's my phiosiphy.(sp?)

You actually just refutted yourself with that quote. It says they had the choice, "die at their own desire and of free will".

Orofacion: I may be wrong about this, but I always took that to mean that, once they reached Aman (or Tol Eressëa, if you prefer), they were given the privilege of the Numenoreans and their descendants, to choose the time of their death. If they refused to make a choice, as their span of time drew to a close, they would, as Aragorn said in App. A, "..wither and fall..".

Anyway, that's my perspective.

Máme

[alkquareiel02]

Sam went to the Gray Havens and left but who knows what happened to Sam after that sad really [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Samwise Gamgee]

They must have died - mortality was a gift, just as immortality. But it is fun to make up beautiful and/or melodramatic stories about their reunion

[Morwen Tindomerel]

In 'Morgoth's Ring' (v. X of HoME) Tolkien specifically states that the Ringbearers went to Tol Eressea, within sight of Aman, not to to Aman itself. And that this grace was granted to them so that they might be healed of the hurts the Ring had inflicted upon their spirits and in due course give up their lives of their own free will, in a spirit of hope and desire for Him who is beyond the Circles of the World. Tolkien goes on to observe that Aragorn achieved this state of grace without the special aid given to the Ringbearers.

Frankly I cannot imagine Sam wanting to be seperated from his Rosie and his children for all the remaining Ages of the World, and doubtless Frodo and Bilbo too have people they'd like to see again, (including their parents and old Friends like Aragorn, Boromir or Bard the Bowman).

And to put it bluntly; life in Eressea and Aman must be godawful boring and no Mortal could stand it forever. Eru only knows how Tuor and Earendil and Elwing are coping. And poor Elrond!

[ June 11, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[peonydeepdelver]

I like this fact. It leaves the question not only open for debate, which I'm sure will occur after I post this, but it leaves a certain mystery to Tolkien's work.

I like this fact too, Orofacion. It also lets readers be able to believe and imagine what they want that happened to Sam and the other Ringbearers (and Gimli). I like how Tolkien doesn't always give information straight out, so you can think what you want.

[Legolas]

I'm with Maikacairien! What is not written is up to the reader! well that's my philosophy [sic].

Maybe so. This, however, was something Tolkien wrote about a number of times. Sam, Frodo, Bilo, and Gimli died in Aman.

If Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli die in Aman, I wonder what happens to them after that. Does anyone have a clue?

[QuickSlash]

If Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli die in Aman, I wonder what happens to them after that. Does anyone have a clue?

Tolkein never said what happened to mortals once they die, because we don't know what happens to us when we die here. He left us to speculate, as 'most everyone does.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

He died.

Man that burrahobbit is funny!

(well, maybe my comment is a bit late :P)

[Morwen Tindomerel]

The souls of Men and Hobbits, after a stay in their own halls of waiting, pass beyond the Circles of the World to High Heaven and the presence of Eru. What that's like is anybody's guess.

Dwarves, according to their own beliefs, are gathered to yet other halls presided over by Aule rather than Mandos and there learn and practice further skills in craft while they await the End. Probably a pleasant enough fate by Dwarvish standards.

Does anyone know if Merry, Pippin, Aragorn, and Boromir ever meet up with Sam, Bilbo, and Frodo? After they leave Aman and go to another place, do all dead mortals eventually meet up somewhere?

[Finwe]

In the Akallabeth, the Elves or the Valar say to the Numenoreans that it is not the land that makes the people holy, it is the people that make the lands holy. It was the Elves who were immortal, not the land that made them so. The Numenoreans thought that if you were a mortal living in Aman, you would automatically become immortal (leading to one of the stupidest acts in Middle-earth's history).
I don't think that Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, and Gimli would have become immortal. Only Eru could have granted that, and I don't think he would have chosen to. They probably all passed away peacefully, with all their friends beside them.
After death, they probably went to the Timeless Halls where all the other spirits of Dead Men awaited. They probably met Merry, Pippin, Aragorn, and Boromir again there.

Ah, thank you. That has bothered me for some time. I could never stand the fact that Frodo and Sam would never again see their beloved friends. I asked a teacher about it and that is what she told me. You have put my mind at rest.

[greyhavener]

I think there are several references in LOTR about various individuals who have died and gone to the "halls of their fathers" or something along those lines. I'm too lazy to look them up.

It's pretty clear motal beings can't stay in the eternal elven realm forever, however there does seem to be an implication their souls or personalities or whatever dwell eternally somewhere in the presence of Ea. Why would it be necessary to heal their souls if they weren't going to exist eternally somewhere?

"Leaf by Niggle" is a short story that gives a pretty good picture of Tolkien's views on purgatory and its purposes for those interested in pursuing that perspective.

[ June 24, 2003: Message edited by: greyhavener ]