Does Mandos have jurisdiction over men?

[Saurreg]

From the Silmarillion, I learnt that the hall of mandos was used for housing the fea of the eldar and perhaps the dwarves'

My question is; did Mandos had any jurisdiction over the fate of men? Elven fates are forever tied to Arda and so they die and reborn again, however Illuvatar had given men a gift to depart from Arda thereafter death. I would like to think of it as another plane of existence, paradise if you would.

So if my assumption is correct, than Mandos would have no power over men would he?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yes, I think Eru is the only one who has control over the mens Fea.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Saurreg, this is an excellent question for advanced discussion - I'm moving it to the Books forum.

Yes, I agree I also think that Eru is the only one who can determine the fate of men. Like you said in the Similliarn it says that men are free of Arda when they pass. So I believe this to be true.

[Orald]

Beren's fea was sent to Mandos.

This fact alone says that Mandos has something to do with men after they die. However, men probably stay in Mandos only for a time. Perhaps it is used as a place for reflection or punishment as it is used for elves. But in this case, after men are released(if they are released), they ascend the circles of the world.

[Galorme]

They went to Mandos for a short time, before they past out of the circles of the world. In the Halls they stayed seperatly from the Fea of the elves.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Actually, beren was sent there because he asked i think, and how his story went.

In the book of lost tales part one theres a long part that tells about how he DOES have jurisdiction over the fate of men. But, i think this idea was thrown away.

anyway its something like this

When men die they go to a place thats near the place where the elves die (in mandos) but from there it can go three different ways.

The first option was that they could sent to Melkor to labor on and on and on. This was alike to our hell.

Or they could be sent to this ship called Mornie thats docked near mandos (his hall not him) and go to Arvalin\. I think thats some empty plain near valmar. This was supposed to be similar to purgatory

The last option (if you were a really good boy [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) was to go dwell with the gods in valmar. This was supposed to be like Heaven

[Galorme]

This was abandoned totally and utterly, and none of those ideas were ever refereed to again. Ok that's a lie, but he thought "no way" and never used this idea again in his writings.

Edit: Beren stayed in Mandos because he wanted to, because he knew Lúthien was going to come to him.

[ December 14, 2002: Message edited by: Galorme ]

[Angry Hill Troll]

There is the question of the Paths of the Dead episode, in which the men who had reneged on their vow to Isildur had their fëa trapped in Middle Earth for 3000 years until they eventually made good on their obligation by coming to Aragorn's aid.

Who prevented their fëa from leaving?

Isildur? If Mandos didn't have control over the fëa of men, then how could Isildur? Moreover, how could Isildur have controlled someone else's fëa long after his own fëa had gone on its merry(?) way?

Eru? perhaps...although only rarely did Eru intervene in Arda, so it seems somewhat out of character.

Manwë? A definite possibility. But I think Mandos is more likely, since his domain among the Valar was fate and the disposition of fëa.

I think it's likely that Mandos did have some degree of control over the fëa of men, at least under certain circumstances.

[Salocin]

Beren's fea was sent to Mandos.

I do not beleive it was. As I remember it, Beren's fea left the circle of Arda like that of all men and went to a fate known only to Eru. Luthien died of grief soon after Beren's death. In the halls of Mandos, Luthien sang a beautifully sad song to Mandos which touched him so much that he interceded for her to Eru to change Beren's fate. Eru headed the plea and granted Luthien the choice to bring Beren back and live with him in Middle Earth for a while, but in exchange to become mortal and follow the fate of men allong with Beren. She chose this fate and Beren was brought beck to Arda where he married her. They lived on an isulated island in the middle of a stream untill they both passed away again. The isulation was partly voluntary and partly manditory because Beren was the only being in all of Arda, including the Valar, who knew the fate of men after death.

When men die they go to a place thats near the place where the elves die (in mandos) but from there it can go three different ways.

I do not remember there being a reference to any man being aloud in the imortal lands for any amount of time including Beren. I am pretty sure the left Arda imedeatly after dieing.

From the Silmarillion, I learnt that the hall of mandos was used for housing the fea of the eldar and perhaps the dwarves'

I do not think dwarves went to the Hall of Mandos either. I am pretty sure Gimli is the only dwarf to set foot in the undieing lands.

There is the question of the Paths of the Dead episode, in which the men who had reneged on their vow to Isildur had their fëa trapped in Middle Earth for 3000 years until they eventually made good on their obligation by coming to Aragorn's aid.

I believe it was their own oaths that kept them trapped in their graves till they fufilled them. It sure is a scarry punishment for breaking a promise!

[Eru]

I believe it was their own oaths that kept them trapped in their graves till they fufilled them. It sure is a scarry punishment for breaking a promise!

i was going to suggest just that. it probably had something to do with the nature of their oaths. Remember the sons of Feanor? They made their oath and were bound to it. although that was of a more serious nature. i think... [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

I don't believe that Mandos had much to do in regards to the fate of Men after the passed away at all. In the Silmarillion, it's stated that at the end of the world, the First-born(elves), and the Second-born(men), would rise to sing a new song with Eru. Tolkien never gave an exact place unto which men departed, maybe for the fact that it corrulates with current societie's belief in the existance of an afterlife. It adds another sublevel to the mystery of some things in the story. But as to whether Mandos had some control or influence in the Doom of Men, I don't think Illuvar privileged him with any.

[Susan Delgado]

I do not think dwarves went to the Hall of Mandos either. I am pretty sure Gimli is the only dwarf to set foot in the undieing lands.

First, going to the Halls of Mandos is different from walking in the undying land while still alive. Second, your premise is countered by this, from the Silm, Chapter II, "Of Aule and Yavanna"

Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and stone of which they were made; yet this is is not their own belief. For they say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers then to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Illuvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End.

[Orald]

I don't care if you believe that Beren went to Mandos or not, it says he does, choosing to not believe is your choice, even though it is a wrong one.

The Silmarillion, p. 104:

Some say that they [Men] too go to the
halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves,
and Mandos under Iluvatar alone save Manwe knows whither they go
after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea.

This next one is also from the Silmarillion, p. 186:

For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried
in the halls of Mandos, until Luthien came to say her last farewell upon
the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to
return.

[Galorme]

Thank you Durelen, I wanted to say something to that effect but that would involved copying stuff from Sil, which would involve going to my bookshelf, which would involve getting up etc etc.

I do not remember there being a reference to any man being aloud in the imortal lands for any amount of time including Beren.

I can think of 4: Tuor, Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise. Probably Gandalf as well, as he was transformed into a Living Human Body(though he probably shred that as soon as he got there)

[Legolas]

Morgoth's Ring:

But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the World; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar unto them, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor hath cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet it is said that they will join in the Second Music of the Ainur, whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for Elves and Valar after the World's end; and Melkor has not discovered it.

This quote from The Silmarillion should resolve both points of confusion - shows Beren did go to Mandos, as did all men, and describes Mandos' power over these spirits:

Therefore he {Mandos} summoned Beren, and even as Lúthien had spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea. But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar. He went therefore to Manwë, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Ilúvatar; and Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed.

[Salocin]

I can think of 4: Tuor, Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise. Probably Gandalf as well

Could you please site where you heard that Tour went to the immortal lands?

Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam were hobbits, not men. There fate is never mentions. Neither is that of the Ents for that matter. They were not Children of Iluvaltar and unlike the dwarves, I do not think Eru had made any promises or plans to adopt them.

Gandalf was a Maia. He was simply desguised in human form and this would no more stop him from stepping onto the immortal lands than it would make him mortal or subject to any of the other faults men are subject to.

[tangerine]

Salocin, there is a section in one of the books to the Last Battle where Melkor slipped back into the world thru the Door of Night while the guard was asleep. It says that Tuor will come back and and pretty much take him down, and the Valar will in turn make him one of the Eldar, i think, or at least admit him to Aman. There is also a part saying that Feanor will come back and deliver the Silmarils to Yarvanna who will break them and release their light etc etc, I dont have a reference for this at the moment, but I believe it's in UT or the Lost Road (HoME).

[Legolas]

Salocin - the fate of Bilbo, Sam, and Frodo is given, and hobbits were men.

I've written an article on this site about the fates of Bilbo, Sam, and Frodo - http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_mortalsinv.asp

If you wish to read Tolkien's thoughts on the matter, there are plenty of quotes from him in that article. To summarize: They sailed to Valinor and died peacefully sometime later on.

Tuor did go to Valinor. From Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin in The Silmarillion:

In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

West being the Undying Lands, naturally. Because of his great service to Ulmo, he was permitted to sail to Valinor with his wife, Idril (daughter of Turgon), and was given immortality by Eru.

tangerine - It is Turin who is said to return and destroy Morgoth - not Tuor. All these ideas of the Last Battle were abandoned, I believe.

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Salocin]

Thank you for the link to the article and the explanation on the fate of Tour, but I still do not see how Hobbits are men. Could you please expound on this a bit further?

Maybe this is a topic for a new thread.

[Galorme]

Hobbits are a branch of Men, as are the Puklemen (sp?, the dunadan but i believe that is so badly spelt it will be unrecognisable). See the Prefix to the FoTR.

He was simply desguised in human form and this would no more stop him from stepping onto the immortal lands than it would make him subject to any of the other faults men are subject to.

He was not disguised at all. He was put in the body of a man, specifically created for him by Eru. He was subject to age, though it was very slow, he had to eat, and he could be destroyed easily (well relativley). He is subject to misfortune etc. He is a Maia in Man Form, not merely a Maia projecting an Image of Man.

[tangerine]

oops. That just occured to me a short while ago, but I did not have the book on hand at the time and got a bit mixed up. Thanx for pointing that out.

[Salocin]

He was not disguised at all. He was put in the body of a man, specifically created for him by Eru. He was subject to age, though it was very slow, he had to eat, and he could be destroyed easily (well relativley).

But he was not subject to death by old age or deseases. His life span appears to resemble the elves and other enbodied imortals than it does mortals (men, hobbits, etc.)

[Galorme]

That's neither here nor there. He was cheating a bit really, but dying would be a frightful nuisance to the plan. He did age however, only very very slowly.