Hope for Undomiel.

[secretfire]

If Arwen repented after the death of Aragorn, could she have joined Legolas & Gimli to the Undying Lands and allowed access to Eldamar?

[ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: secretfire ]

[Legolas]

Repented? There's no repentance. She didn't do anything wrong.

Arwen was half-elf (like her father, uncle, and brothers). They were given a choice - to be mortal or immortal. Arwen had until her father left Middle-earth to decide. She made her choice, and it was undoubtedly permanent.

What's the half-elven choice all about? Here's an article and a link to other threads on the same subject.

[Iarhen]

At what time did she actually turn from elf to human? I thought that it was Elrond's choice, and that his choice would be the same one for his siblings. Meaning that Arwen was an elf, and she did not have that choice, since she was the daugther of 2 elves.

I cant understand it... Was her elfhood linked to her nearness to her father? She could have stayed here and remain elf, without any obstacle. And if she had the choice to be elf or human, so would Eldarion and thats a wild guess.

Eitherway, at what time did she become human? In the moment Elrond entered Valinor? Or when?

Eitherway, I think she could have entered Valinor after Aragorn's death. I mean, if Gimli was able to enter (presumably by Galadriel's support) couldn't Galadriel do the same for her grand-daughter?

[Annunfuiniel]

At what time did she actually turn from elf to human? I thought that it was Elrond's choice, and that his choice would be the same one for his siblings. Meaning that Arwen was an elf, and she did not have that choice, since she was the daugther of 2 elves.

Elrond and his children were all granted the chance to choose their own fates so Elrond's choice didn't have any other effect on his siblings except that they had the life of elves as long as Elrond stayed in M-E. Arwen was half-elven because she had inherited human blood from her father and so she wasn't "pure" elf; Elrond's choice to be counted among elves didn't change his blood. And finally Arwen never became human, she just became mortal and that happened (according to the Story of Aragorn and Arwen)when

Arwen saw him[Aragorn] again after the long time of separation; and while he went towards her, under the trees dressed in golden flowers in Caras Galadhon, Arwen made her choice, and her fate was set.

This happened TA 2980, to be exact. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] She as the others who were given the chance of choosing could do it only once and there was no turning back. F.ex. Elrond couldn't "repent" after he heard about Arwen's decision; it brought him great pain but he had no choice but to sail to West like other elves, it was his fate. The children of Aragorn and Arwen had no choice although they had some elven blood in their veins 'cause the human blood was the decisive factor, it bound them to the fate of humans; as said so many times earlier, Earendil, Elwing, Elros and Elrond and his children were exceptions.
Besides, Arwen had given her "pass" to the Undying Lands to Frodo and that at the latest made her decision final.

[ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: Annunfuiniel ]

[secretfire]

"I mean, if Gimli was able to enter (presumably by Galadriel's support) couldn't Galadriel do the same for her grand-daughter?"

Point taken. I know this is guesswork but what if she prayed really hard to her grandmother to let her in? I mean, JRRT tells us that Galadriel was mighty among the Eldar so couldn't The Lady have found a way to supersede the choice of Arwen? C'mon, give the Evening Star some hope! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

On a similar note, wouldn't it be great if Tolkien depicted the leavetaking of Legolas & Gimli and Arwen? Would she have sent letters to her family? Would Legolas & Gimli be overcome with weeping and sadness?

The Flame of Anor has risen in the East! Twenty three years is such a short time to live among such excellent and admirable hobbits!

[ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: secretfire ]

[Legolas]

At what time did she actually turn from elf to human? I thought that it was Elrond's choice, and that his choice would be the same one for his siblings. Meaning that Arwen was an elf, and she did not have that choice, since she was the daugther of 2 elves.

Arwen was not an elf. She was never an elf. She wasn't an elf who "became" human. She was a half-elf who had not made her choice, and then she was a half-elf that was to share the mortal fate of man. Tolkien is explicit about this in his letters.

Elrond too was not an elf. He was an half-elf who would share the immortal fate of the elves.

Elrond's children got the choice because they had a renewed elvish strain from their mother, Celebrian. They were not the children of two elves, but rather one half-elf and one elf, making them half-elven too.

Like I recommended in my initial post: Read the article I linked to.

I mean, JRRT tells us that Galadriel was mighty among the Eldar so couldn't The Lady have found a way to supersede the choice of Arwen?

No. Immortality/mortality could only be changed by Eru himself. Eru gave Earendil's family their choice, and it was only he who could alter one's fate.

[ March 26, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[The Saucepan Man]

I mean, if Gimli was able to enter (presumably by Galadriel's support) couldn't Galadriel do the same for her grand-daughter?

Well, it's possible I suppose. But had she been allowed to go to the Undying Lands after Aragorn's death, she too would have died in time just like Gimli (assuming he made it there) and the other mortals who sailed West (Bilbo, Frodo and Sam). She had chosen mortality and, as I understand it, that choice was irrevocable.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Oh...I've always wondered about that, but chose not to post, as I have absolutely no knowledge as to that.... [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[akhtene]

I've always believed that the main implication of the Choice was not where or how long the half-elven were to live, but where their fea went after death. Mortals didn't stay at Mandos forever, like elves, so Arwen decided to follow Aragorn wherever he went, beyond the limits of Arda.
And by leaving M-E with Elrond or remaining there Elrond's children just declared what choice they have made.

[Annunfuiniel]

I just want to add one more quote from the Story of Aragorn and Arwen.

"I won't say words of consolation, for there's no consolation for a pain that great within the limits of this world; yours is a last choice; either to repent and depart for the Harbors, carrying the memory of the days that passed while we lived together, a memory that will forever be green there, but only a memory; or else wait for the Destiny of Men."

"No, oh beloved lord," she said, "since a long time ago there's no such choice. There are no ships that can take me there, and indeed by force I shall wait the Destiny of Men, either wanting or rejecting it. But only this I will certainly say, oh King of the Númenóreans: until before now I hadn't understood the story of your people and their fall, and I mocked them, thinking them vain and evil; but now I finally pity them. For if this is the gift, like the Eldar say, that the One concedes Men, well, indeed it's a bitter gift."

Yes, Arwen says that there is no ship that can carry her to the Undying Lands which we know wasn't true. But Aragorn's words put Arwen in final "test" and as all good characters she passes it; she has chosen her road and will follow it to the end. But the main point here is what Aragorn states as his last words:

"Indeed," he said. "But let's not abandon ourselves to pain, we who in other time renounced the Shadow and the Dusk. Sorrowfully we part, but not without hope. Behold! We aren't held forever inside the walls of this world, and on the other side there's more than memory. Farewell!"

The hope for Undomiel lies not in the West but beyond. Again - hope without guarantees.

P.S. I love that part of their story, just see my sig. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Tinuviel the Nightingale]

I've always thought of Arwen as always being an elf, even when she chose not to go to the Undying Lands. I've just always thought that she died of grief from losing Aragorn.
I'd appreciate any comments or corrections, as I don't want to get the wrong idea.

[Legolas]

To answer the first question with a quote which I (intended to, but) failed to give:

The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share.

Here Tolkien says it was irrevocable. Irrevocable is defined as incapable of being recalled or revoked; unchangeable; irreversible; unalterable; as, an irrevocable promise or decree; irrevocable fate.

Tinuviel: That is a common misconception. Elrond is descended from both men and elves, and his family is known as 'half-elven' because of that.

Prior to his parents, Earendil and Elwing, anyone with any mortal blood was considered mortal and would die as a man would. With Earendil and Elwing's accomplishments, they (along with their sons) were granted the choice of mortality or immortality.

Elrond chose immortality, of course, and he married an elf - Galadriel's daughter - who gave birth to Arwen. Arwen was thus half-elven too because of Elrond's portion of mortal blood. She was a half-elf - not an elf. When she made her decision, she picked mortality. She was never immortal - it was just decided that she would age like the Eldar did until she decided which fate she would suffer.

Tolkien explicitly states that half-elves are not the same as elves in Letter No. 345:

Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights.

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lostgaeriel]

Thanks for the quotes from The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Annunfuiniel. But I believe they must be translations back to English from your native tongue. (I believe you made mention in another thread that English is not your first language.)

Tolkien's turn of phrase has been lost in these translations. Compare:

Arwen saw him again after the long time of separation; and while he went towards her, under the trees dressed in golden flowers in Caras Galadhon, Arwen made her choice, and her fate was set.

to the original

And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.

[Lostgaeriel]

And compare this

"I won't say words of consolation, for there's no consolation for a pain that great within the limits of this world; yours is a last choice; either to repent and depart for the Harbors, carrying the memory of the days that passed while we lived together, a memory that will forever be green there, but only a memory; or else wait for the Destiny of Men."

"No, oh beloved lord," she said, "since a long time ago there's no such choice. There are no ships that can take me there, and indeed by force I shall wait the Destiny of Men, either wanting or rejecting it. But only this I will certainly say, oh King of the Númenóreans: until before now I hadn't understood the story of your people and their fall, and I mocked them, thinking them vain and evil; but now I finally pity them. For if this is the gift, like the Eldar say, that the One concedes Men, well, indeed it's a bitter gift."

"Indeed," he said. "But let's not abandon ourselves to pain, we who in other time renounced the Shadow and the Dusk. Sorrowfully we part, but not without hope. Behold! We aren't held forever inside the walls of this world, and on the other side there's more than memory. Farewell!"

to Tolkien's original

“I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men.”

“Nay, dear lord,” she said, “that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Númenóreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the fit of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.”

“So it seems,” he said. “But let us not be overthrown at the final test, who of old renounced the Shadow and the Ring. In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory. Farewell!”

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

[Annunfuiniel]

Oooops... Thank you for the corrections, Lostgaeriel. Yes, I have used my own translations elsewhere but those quotes where from the internet. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] Shouldn't trust every source so blindly I see... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Or are there perhaps different versions of this story? I really don't know but now I'm curious. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Even if there were other versions, Aragorn and Arwen simply don't use contractions. It wouldn't fit the style that Tolkien adopted when writing about them. Those quotations may be from a Babelfish translation, or typed in from memory; they may even be a misguided attempt to make the language "relevant to a modern audience" (i.e. modernised for the benefit of the illiterate). This is why my quotations are always copied from my books.

[Lostgaeriel]

Perhaps it's time you got an English-version copy? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Your command of the language is excellent. If you had not mentioned it, I would never have known it's not your first language.

If you possibly can, do find an English copy; you'll get to enjoy what you've been missing - Tolkien's wonderful use of the English language.

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: Lostgaeriel ]

Wonderful discussion. To respond to secretfire's original thought, Hope for Undomiel, I think there is indeed hope for her, but not the hope of going to the undying lands. Her hope is that of the possibility of an eternal life, shared with Aragorn, that is not yet known by men or elves. To me, this is part of the doom of the Followers: yes they experience death, but they have an unknown fate for eternity. The doom of the Firstborn is undying life (shown to be a mixed blessing in Tolkien's writings) and a known eternity in Eressea after passing over.

It's been pointed out that Arwen made her choice of destiny when she chose Aragorn. In doing so she chose to share his fate. To me, when she speaks about "no ship that would take me there" she means not "no physical ship could be found" -- indeed Legolas and Gimli had not passed over, nor had Cirdan, to my knowledge -- but rather "given my love for you and the choice that I made, there is no ship that could take me." Kind of an extremely elegant and subtle way of saying, "Wild horses couldn't drag me to Eressea." More a comment to Aragorn on her emotional and psychological state, a reaffirming of the choice.

Why and of what cause does she die? I have struggled with this as well. Why not stay in Minas Tirith, enjoy her children and eventual grandchildren and her friends for a few more decades? Or at least, staying there to be buried along side Aragorn? At the end, it's her choice, deliberately saying farewell and choosing to return to and be buried in the place of perhaps her greatest happiness - on the hill in Lothlorien where she and Aragorn had plighted their troth.

Think about it...the knowledge that eventually this day would come, that she and her father would never see each other again after he passed over, because they had differnt fates, made their parting so sad.

[secretfire]

thank you celebrial and the others. you have given undomiel (and me as well) lots of hope by your words. would that the evenstar had you by her side after the departure of her beloved. i especially liked celebrial's theory of arwen wanting to return and die on the hill where she and aragorn renounced the shadow and the ring. i would cast my first vote for you on the downs if you allowed yourself to be rated.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
by the way, don't you think "Hope for Undomiel" would be a wonderful title for a poem? Very assonantal and melodious to the ear.

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: secretfire ]

[ March 31, 2003: Message edited by: secretfire ]

[Iarhen]

Ive always thought that her doom was a really sad one. And her parting to Lorien has always been a confusion for me. If she was so sad for the death of Aragorn, why didn't she stay with Eldarion? Her son was the closest she could get to Aragorn, and to his love and his life, not a hill on the deserted land of her grandmother and mother, where she met her dead husband.

If I had been her, I would have stayed in Minas Tirith and I would never go to Lorien... to see such a decadent realm after knowing it in it's full beauty would make me grieve a lot more...

[secretfire]

We must consider that Elves possess a "bittersweet knowledge that they are about to pass into myth." And Arwen being part-elf was a creature of solitude and contemplation. Arwen's retreat makes perfect sense when you read celebrial's theory on the sundering of Arwen and Elrond. Perhaps she wanted to avail of the vestiges of Lorien's healing power.