Languages - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 04-19-2001, 06:18 PM

I'm interested in studying the languages of Middle-earth. I know there are several really great sites out there, and I plan to use them. I also have the book 'The Languages of middle-earth' by Ruth Noel, but she seems to have fairly liberal with her 'interpretations'.

I was wondering if any of you would like to work together with me in my studies. Maybe we could create a 'conversational Elvish'.

I'd like to first study the names and phrases used in the Lord of the Rings and then progress outward. In the fellowship of the Ring the first Elvish seen is:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!<hr></blockquote>
The Silmarillion says:
Gilthoniel
gil = 'star'
Elbereth = 'Star Queen'
êl, elen = 'star'

So what do -thoniel and -bereth mean? Does bereth = 'queen'?

Can any of you solve these two simple words citing your sources?

Think of this like a lesson. We are all teachers, but we don't add new words until the current words and questions are answered. I don't want this to turn into a thread where people are randomly adding words to the pot. Instead, I'd like to see words thoroughly discussed and added to the WORD LIST before we move on to new words.

Orald · 04-19-2001, 08:14 PM

Well I personally would love to learn an elvish language. Sindarin would probably be the best, since it was so widely used. Why just earlier today, I was going over pronounciations of elvish words when I was visiting a link on the Ardalambion site.

Now to your question. Bereth, seems rather similar to the beruth in beruthiel, do you think they are the same? However in the etymologies in HoME V there is a stem under Berèth meaning birch tree, this seemed unlikely to me though, so I shortened it down to ber- which means valiant. When I looked under the entry for ber- I found a lead, and in the first conception ber- is what JRRT had in mind, but he decided against it and CT assumes that JRRT went for bereth as being a corrupted form of Barath. Barath doesn't have an exact definition under it, but it does say that it could be related to Bar- and Barad. This seems to make sense since Barad means tower and towers reach high into the sky and I hope I don't have to explain the rest of that.

I would break down Gilthoniel into what seems to be the most likely way, Gil-thon-iel. Gil of course being star. The -iel if I recall is shortened from -riel which means garlanded maiden. Thon- is tough, in the etymologies it says pine-tree, but this doesn't really correspond, so I am going to make a safe guess and say that it is a corrupted form of something else. I can't seem to find any thing else from which it could have originated, so I will make a stop over at Ardalambion, and perhaps it may be known over there.

Edit:

I did find something. Gilthoniel roughly translates to Star-Kindler. I don't really see where the stem -iel goes, unless thoniel is actually one piece and -iel is not shortened from -riel.

Orald · 04-19-2001, 08:47 PM

Another little note. I found an entry concerning bereth, but I doubt it is anything relating to Elbereth. Anyway bereth can mean feast/festival. All the stems in the two words look like nouns, because I couldn't find anything under verbs. Not finding any relation to verbs is a little weird to me and I am just wondering what the verb form 'to kindle' looks like.

enep · 04-19-2001, 10:31 PM

I found the following at a site that I searched for, namely http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/elbereth.htmwww.uib.no/People/hnohf/elbereth.htm</a> It's a fairly thorough page that goes over the entire 'hymn,' beginning with A Elbereth Githoniel.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "The element el- means
"star", while bereth according to RGEO:74 means "spouse", used of the
spouse of a king, hence coming to mean "queen". Varda is both the Queen of the
Valar and the spouse of Manwë; in Letters:282 Elbereth is
translated "Star-lady". Why is bereth is not lenited to *vereth in Elbereth, though the second element in a compound would normally be
lenited? Tolkien addressed this question in MR:387: It is because the element el- "star" was originally elen, as in Quenya, and so we have older Elenbarathi yielding Elmbereth, simplified to Elbereth, older lmb becoming lb instead of lv. Note that the word Elbereth is not directly related to Quenya Varda "Lofty, Sublime" (the Quenya form of Elbereth would have been something like *Elenvarsi, while the Sindarin cognate of Varda would have been *Baradh or possibly *Bradh, but there is no evidence that these forms were in use as names of the Starqueen)."<hr></blockquote>
I hope that helps, BW. THere is also another paragraph on Gilthoniel:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "Gilthoniel "Star-kindler": Gil "bright spark, star" (as in
Gil-galad "Star of Radiance&quot<img src=wink.gif ALT="

"> + thoniel "kindler". In MR:388, the
latter element is said to come from a stem than, thân "kindle, set light to" + iel "a feminine suffix corresponding to male
-we". (Sindarin th cannot undergo any lenition and is therefore
unchanged when gil- is prefixed.) In Letters:278, Gilthoniel is
translated "Starkindler", but Tolkien added a note: "in the past tense: the title belongs to mythical pre-history and does not refer to a permanent
function". So somehow thoniel is marked as past tense "one having
kindled" instead of "one who is kindling (now)". If we see it as a participle,
displaying the same ending as in palan-díriel "having gazed far"
later in the hymn (as opposed to present tense palan-diriel "gazing far"
in Sam's invocation), it should have a long vowel in the past tense. Since the stem is given as than-, thân- in MR:388, not *thon-, we are evidently to understand that long á (â) became o (via au). Many parallels show this to be the case; for instance, Sindarin Anor "Sun" comes from anâr- (LR:378, stem ANÁR)."<hr></blockquote>
It's a bit confusing, too confusing for myself (studying Latin tenses and not needing to get tangled in Quenyan tenses <img src=wink.gif ALT="

"> ) but I'm sure it'll help.

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 04-20-2001, 05:59 AM

Wow! Both of those explanations are wonderful! And wonderfully complicated.

Now I have to rethink how we could build a functional language dictionary. Are there any language experts out there that would like to teach us some elvish?
/ultimatebb.cgi[/url]Middle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

enep · 04-20-2001, 05:51 PM

Hmm...H-I and Lindil would help, I'm sure, if they were here <img src=wink.gif ALT="

">

Gil-numen · 01-02-2004, 10:22 PM

This could just be an Adunaic thing but isn't the suffix -eth lady? Bereth, Nuneth, Adaneth, etc. Orodreth could have been a mistake, maybe ?

--------------------------------
"Show it to me"
Thingol to Beren

Finwe · 01-03-2004, 03:28 PM

The only suffix that you can definitely say is feminine is "-iel." "-eth" can be feminine, but it isn't 100% feminine.

BW, I would really recommend this site: Ardalambion

It has extremely detailed descriptions of just about all the languages that existed in Middle-earth, even the ones that he barely touched on. There is also a Quenya course that you can download, which greatly helps Middle-earth language students. It's the course that I used to learn Quenya.

Falagar · 01-03-2004, 03:36 PM

Quote:

It's the course that I used to learn Quenya.

Same here. Some time since I last read it now though.

Gil-numen · 01-03-2004, 09:25 PM

Finwe, looks like you forgot -wen. Morwen, Eledhwen, Ivorwen, etc.

--------------------------------------
"Show it to me"
Thingol to Beren

Finwe · 01-03-2004, 10:18 PM

In my embroidered bedroom slippers, I stand corrected. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

"-wen" meaning "maiden" is indeed another feminine suffix.

07-10-2007, 11:42 AM

If this thread is still open, and will welcome my help, I would be glad to give it. i.e.- Elessar (Aragorn's Elven name)- King of Stars

Morwen · 07-10-2007, 11:58 AM

Noldon, I've always seen Elessar translated as "Elfstone". On what are you basing your translation?

07-10-2007, 12:01 PM

Ele = star, ar = high/lofty

(Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth, Ruth S. Noel)

Galin · 07-11-2007, 07:29 AM

Elessar indeed appears to be translated 'Elfstone' in Appendix F.

One can also note Aragorn's name Edhelharn 'Elfstone' appearing in The King's Letter (Quenya Elessar also appears in the letter).

About 'stone' compare the Etymologies entry: 'Q. sar pl. sardi stone (small)... N. sarn stone as a material.' (N. stands for Noldorin in this earlier text). With respect to Edhelharn initial s (edhel-sarn) has been mutated in this example.

04-19-2001, 06:18 PM	#1
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	Languages I'm interested in studying the languages of Middle-earth. I know there are several really great sites out there, and I plan to use them. I also have the book 'The Languages of middle-earth' by Ruth Noel, but she seems to have fairly liberal with her 'interpretations'. I was wondering if any of you would like to work together with me in my studies. Maybe we could create a 'conversational Elvish'. I'd like to first study the names and phrases used in the Lord of the Rings and then progress outward. In the fellowship of the Ring the first Elvish seen is: <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!<hr></blockquote> The Silmarillion says: Gilthoniel* gil = 'star' Elbereth = 'Star Queen' êl, elen = 'star' So what do -thoniel and -bereth mean? Does bereth = 'queen'? Can any of you solve these two simple words citing your sources? Think of this like a lesson. We are all teachers, but we don't add new words until the current words and questions are answered. I don't want this to turn into a thread where people are randomly adding words to the pot. Instead, I'd like to see words thoroughly discussed and added to the WORD LIST before we move on to new words. __________________ The Barrow-Wight

04-19-2001, 10:31 PM	#4
enep The Ghastly Leprechaun Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 406	I found the following at a site that I searched for, namely http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/elbereth.htmwww.uib.no/People/hnohf/elbereth.htm</a> It's a fairly thorough page that goes over the entire 'hymn,' beginning with A Elbereth Githoniel. <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> "The element el- means "star", while bereth according to RGEO:74 means "spouse", used of the spouse of a king, hence coming to mean "queen". Varda is both the Queen of the Valar and the spouse of Manwë; in Letters:282 Elbereth is translated "Star-lady". Why is bereth is not lenited to vereth in Elbereth, though the second element in a compound would normally be lenited? Tolkien addressed this question in MR:387: It is because the element el- "star" was originally elen, as in Quenya, and so we have older Elenbarathi yielding Elmbereth, simplified to Elbereth, older lmb becoming lb instead of lv. Note that the word Elbereth is not directly related to Quenya Varda "Lofty, Sublime" (the Quenya form of Elbereth would have been something like Elenvarsi, while the Sindarin cognate of Varda would have been Baradh or possibly Bradh, but there is no evidence that these forms were in use as names of the Starqueen)."<hr></blockquote> I hope that helps, BW. THere is also another paragraph on Gilthoniel: <blockquote>Quote:<hr> "Gilthoniel "Star-kindler": Gil "bright spark, star" (as in Gil-galad "Star of Radiance&quot<img src=wink.gif ALT=""> + thoniel "kindler". In MR:388, the latter element is said to come from a stem than, thân "kindle, set light to" + iel "a feminine suffix corresponding to male -we". (Sindarin th cannot undergo any lenition and is therefore unchanged when gil- is prefixed.) In Letters:278, Gilthoniel is translated "Starkindler", but Tolkien added a note: "in the past tense: the title belongs to mythical pre-history and does not refer to a permanent function". So somehow thoniel is marked as past tense "one having kindled" instead of "one who is kindling (now)". If we see it as a participle, displaying the same ending as in palan-díriel "having gazed far" later in the hymn (as opposed to present tense palan-diriel "gazing far" in Sam's invocation), it should have a long vowel in the past tense. Since the stem is given as than-, thân- in MR:388, not thon-, we are evidently to understand that long á (â) became o (via au). Many parallels show this to be the case; for instance, Sindarin Anor "Sun" comes from anâr- (LR:378, stem ANÁR)."<hr></blockquote> It's a bit confusing, too confusing for myself (studying Latin tenses and not needing to get tangled in Quenyan tenses <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> ) but I'm sure it'll help. __________________ - enep

04-20-2001, 05:59 AM	#5
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	Wow! Both of those explanations are wonderful! And wonderfully complicated. Now I have to rethink how we could build a functional language dictionary. Are there any language experts out there that would like to teach us some elvish? /ultimatebb.cgi[/url]Middle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p> __________________ The Barrow-Wight

04-20-2001, 05:51 PM	#6
enep The Ghastly Leprechaun Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 406	Hmm...H-I and Lindil would help, I'm sure, if they were here <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> __________________ - enep

01-03-2004, 03:28 PM	#8
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	The only suffix that you can definitely say is feminine is "-iel." "-eth" can be feminine, but it isn't 100% feminine. BW, I would really recommend this site: Ardalambion It has extremely detailed descriptions of just about all the languages that existed in Middle-earth, even the ones that he barely touched on. There is also a Quenya course that you can download, which greatly helps Middle-earth language students. It's the course that I used to learn Quenya. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

04-19-2001, 08:14 PM	#2
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Well I personally would love to learn an elvish language. Sindarin would probably be the best, since it was so widely used. Why just earlier today, I was going over pronounciations of elvish words when I was visiting a link on the Ardalambion site. Now to your question. Bereth, seems rather similar to the beruth in beruthiel, do you think they are the same? However in the etymologies in HoME V there is a stem under Berèth meaning birch tree, this seemed unlikely to me though, so I shortened it down to ber- which means valiant. When I looked under the entry for ber- I found a lead, and in the first conception ber- is what JRRT had in mind, but he decided against it and CT assumes that JRRT went for bereth as being a corrupted form of Barath. Barath doesn't have an exact definition under it, but it does say that it could be related to Bar- and Barad. This seems to make sense since Barad means tower and towers reach high into the sky and I hope I don't have to explain the rest of that. I would break down Gilthoniel into what seems to be the most likely way, Gil-thon-iel. Gil of course being star. The -iel if I recall is shortened from -riel which means garlanded maiden. Thon- is tough, in the etymologies it says pine-tree, but this doesn't really correspond, so I am going to make a safe guess and say that it is a corrupted form of something else. I can't seem to find any thing else from which it could have originated, so I will make a stop over at Ardalambion, and perhaps it may be known over there. Edit: I did find something. Gilthoniel roughly translates to Star-Kindler. I don't really see where the stem -iel goes, unless thoniel is actually one piece and -iel is not shortened from -riel.

04-19-2001, 08:47 PM	#3
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Another little note. I found an entry concerning bereth, but I doubt it is anything relating to Elbereth. Anyway bereth can mean feast/festival. All the stems in the two words look like nouns, because I couldn't find anything under verbs. Not finding any relation to verbs is a little weird to me and I am just wondering what the verb form 'to kindle' looks like.

01-02-2004, 10:22 PM	#7
Gil-numen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Cuivienen...hanging out with the fading Elves Posts: 36	This could just be an Adunaic thing but isn't the suffix -eth lady? Bereth, Nuneth, Adaneth, etc. Orodreth could have been a mistake, maybe ? -------------------------------- "Show it to me" Thingol to Beren

01-03-2004, 09:25 PM	#10
Gil-numen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Cuivienen...hanging out with the fading Elves Posts: 36	Finwe, looks like you forgot -wen. Morwen, Eledhwen, Ivorwen, etc. -------------------------------------- "Show it to me" Thingol to Beren

01-03-2004, 10:18 PM	#11
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	In my embroidered bedroom slippers, I stand corrected. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] "-wen" meaning "maiden" is indeed another feminine suffix. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

07-10-2007, 11:42 AM	#12
noldon Guest Posts: n/a	Test of thread continuity If this thread is still open, and will welcome my help, I would be glad to give it. i.e.- Elessar (Aragorn's Elven name)- King of Stars

07-10-2007, 11:58 AM	#13
Morwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 274	Noldon, I've always seen Elessar translated as "Elfstone". On what are you basing your translation? __________________ He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said

07-10-2007, 12:01 PM	#14
noldon Guest Posts: n/a	Ele = star, ar = high/lofty (Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth, Ruth S. Noel)

07-11-2007, 07:29 AM	#15
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,034	Elessar indeed appears to be translated 'Elfstone' in Appendix F. One can also note Aragorn's name Edhelharn 'Elfstone' appearing in The King's Letter (Quenya Elessar also appears in the letter). About 'stone' compare the Etymologies entry: 'Q. sar pl. sardi stone (small)... N. sarn stone as a material.' (N. stands for Noldorin in this earlier text). With respect to Edhelharn initial s (edhel-sarn) has been mutated in this example. Last edited by Galin; 07-12-2007 at 03:09 PM.

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