Ungoliant and the Valar - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Glorfindel · 03-14-2001, 10:42 PM

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In the Silm it is said that Ungoliant after drinking the blood of the two trees and slurping down all of Varda's wells was so powerful that she could of killed Melkor. Now do you think at that point she was more powerful then the other valar. Or did Melkor (Morgoth) after taking the form of the Dark Knight loose some power in whole "falling from grace" if you will? Or do you think he was still the most powerful?
And would the type of Valar have any difference in fighting Ungoliant? Like for instance I think Manwe would get his butt kicked because he seems to be not powerful (which he wasn't) but his power seems to be with wisdom and the emerged in the will of Illuvatar. So would Tulkas (my favorite) be able to take Ungoliant by himself?
I think he could.

</p>

Elenanna · 03-14-2001, 10:51 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

hmm... i dont think that ungoliant would havve been able to beat all of the valar then. although Melkor did lose some power by putting it into his creatures he was still extremely powerful, because of this ungoliant might have been poewrful to take out 1 valar at a time if they came in groups of 2+ she wouldn't have beaten them. if lindil comes youll have your answer <img src=smile.gif ALT="

">

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Glorfindel · 03-14-2001, 10:53 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Ungoliant and the Valar

And was Orome only powerful because of his hosts he hunted with?

</p>

Elenanna · 03-14-2001, 11:06 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

hmm.. i think ill have to check on that one, be back in a sec

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Elenanna · 03-14-2001, 11:10 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

Lords of the Valar Queens of the Valar (Valier)
Manwë Súlimo Varda Elentári
Ulmo Yavanna Kementári
Aulë the Smith Nienna
Oromë Estë the Gentle
Mandos (Námo) Vairë the Weaver
Lórien (Irmo) Vána the Ever-young
Tulkas Astaldo Nessa
This table shows the fourteen Valar in 'due order' (i.e. in descending order of power). Names shown in bold indicate one of the eight Aratar, the mightiest of the Valar.
does this help?

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Orald · 03-15-2001, 08:50 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

According to Silm., I believe it states that Manwë is the mightiest among the Valar, then Ulmo above Varda, and then Aulë above Varda and Yavanna. After Aulë it seems unclear in what exact order it goes other than Oromë, Namo, Varda, Yavanna and Nienna complete the Aratar.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

Elenanna · 03-15-2001, 09:17 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

well i'm not sure if it's correct (what i said earlier) i got it from www.myprecious.freeuk.com take it up w/ them if u disagree <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

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Hannah 3 · 03-15-2001, 10:40 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

Not regarding that table that just confuses me... Manwe was the most powerful but not fighting power. Tulkas would have won, though, as he was originally a god of war. Melkor became weaker as he became bad, a bit like Saruman did.
Two or more Valar would have beaten Ungoliant, definately. =)

~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

The X Phial · 03-15-2001, 01:12 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

This sort of goes back to the question of what Ungoliant was to begin with. I mean, it says she came out of shadow and darkness, but if there is an explanation of what kind of spirit she is I think I must have missed it (entirely possible). As for the question about the Valar being able to beat her, I think most assuredly so. After all, the Balrogs fought her off and (though we don't know how many of them there were) they are certainly less powerful than the Valar together. About Tulkas, he could beat Melkor even before Melkor started losing his powers. I think he could have kicked some spider butt...if only they hadn't been feasting, *sigh*.

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

Orald · 03-15-2001, 01:19 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

I took a look at the site, it seems ok, since they had the Valar and Valier divided.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

Imp · 03-15-2001, 07:27 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> ...

Manwe and Varda's powers both help boost eachothers

</p>

Elenanna · 03-15-2001, 09:58 PM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ...

yes, i think its the same w/ all of the Valar and the Valier.

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Inziladun · 03-16-2001, 08:12 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

I think Ungoliant was in her origin a Maia,since it is said that Melkor corrupted her to his service in the beginning. The Valar were certainly more powerful if this is true.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

Inziladun · 03-16-2001, 08:32 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

And just a suggestion for those who haven't: be sure to peruse the older threads. A lot of things have been discussed here over time,and copying an old thread in a new one is a distinct possibility.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 3/16/01 9:34:27 am

Elenanna · 03-17-2001, 01:14 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

i think ungoliant was evil in the beginning and it more means melkor corupted her to his ways. i dont think ungoliant was a maia since it says she came out of the great darkness, and that the light drove away most of the creatures that were there.
p.s. im not sure about this so correct me if im wrong

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Inziladun · 03-17-2001, 09:50 AM

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> "The Eldar knew not whence she (Ungoliant) came;but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda,when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë,and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service."<hr></blockquote>

All the Valar as well as their servants,the Maiar came into Arda from the darkness of the Void. I think that is what is meant here. As for Ungoliant's, origin,a corrupted Maia seems the most likely. Nothing else seems to fit.

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 3/17/01 11:12:41 am

the witch king · 11-29-2002, 10:54 AM

i dont think she could have beeten morgoth you gotta remember the sims where burning his hands also the balrogs beat her off and there far less powerful

thorondil · 11-30-2002, 06:30 PM

Even after she gorged herself Ungoliant (even with Melkor) couldn't even have beat Orome or Tulkas alone, much less Manwe (he wasn't weak he was the strongest Vala). That's why she belched forth a big cloud of Darkness...and her and Melkor ran like hell...with the host of Orome hot on their tails.

-Imrahil- · 11-30-2002, 07:11 PM

Agree Thorondil.

Lindril Arvilya · 11-30-2002, 07:55 PM

Ungoliant: *munch munch slurp*
Melkor: Uh.... shouldn't we get going?
Ungoliant: Just a minute, I'm still hungry.
Melkor: What are you, a hobbit? Let's go! Any second now the Valar are gonna notice us...
*the lights go out*
Melkor: Well *&%#. Now how're we going to explain this.
Ungoliant: I'm still hungry.
Melkor: Shut up.

03-14-2001, 10:42 PM	#1
Glorfindel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 42	Ungoliant and the Valar <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 2</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> In the Silm it is said that Ungoliant after drinking the blood of the two trees and slurping down all of Varda's wells was so powerful that she could of killed Melkor. Now do you think at that point she was more powerful then the other valar. Or did Melkor (Morgoth) after taking the form of the Dark Knight loose some power in whole "falling from grace" if you will? Or do you think he was still the most powerful? And would the type of Valar have any difference in fighting Ungoliant? Like for instance I think Manwe would get his butt kicked because he seems to be not powerful (which he wasn't) but his power seems to be with wisdom and the emerged in the will of Illuvatar. So would Tulkas (my favorite) be able to take Ungoliant by himself? I think he could. </p>

03-14-2001, 10:51 PM	#2
Elenanna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 98	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 68</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar hmm... i dont think that ungoliant would havve been able to beat all of the valar then. although Melkor did lose some power by putting it into his creatures he was still extremely powerful, because of this ungoliant might have been poewrful to take out 1 valar at a time if they came in groups of 2+ she wouldn't have beaten them. if lindil comes youll have your answer <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

03-15-2001, 01:12 PM	#9
The X Phial Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Out there with the truth. Come find me. Posts: 317	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 7</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar This sort of goes back to the question of what Ungoliant was to begin with. I mean, it says she came out of shadow and darkness, but if there is an explanation of what kind of spirit she is I think I must have missed it (entirely possible). As for the question about the Valar being able to beat her, I think most assuredly so. After all, the Balrogs fought her off and (though we don't know how many of them there were) they are certainly less powerful than the Valar together. About Tulkas, he could beat Melkor even before Melkor started losing his powers. I think he could have kicked some spider butt...if only they hadn't been feasting, sigh. --The X Phial-- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p> __________________ But then there was a star danced, and under that was I born.

03-16-2001, 08:12 AM	#13
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 152</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar I think Ungoliant was in her origin a Maia,since it is said that Melkor corrupted her to his service in the beginning. The Valar were certainly more powerful if this is true. Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p> __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

03-16-2001, 08:32 AM	#14
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 154</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar And just a suggestion for those who haven't: be sure to peruse the older threads. A lot of things have been discussed here over time,and copying an old thread in a new one is a distinct possibility. Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 3/16/01 9:34:27 am __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

03-14-2001, 10:53 PM	#3
Glorfindel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 42	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 3</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Ungoliant and the Valar And was Orome only powerful because of his hosts he hunted with? </p>

03-14-2001, 11:06 PM	#4
Elenanna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 98	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 70</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar hmm.. i think ill have to check on that one, be back in a sec Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

03-14-2001, 11:10 PM	#5
Elenanna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 98	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 71</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar Lords of the Valar Queens of the Valar (Valier) Manwë Súlimo Varda Elentári Ulmo Yavanna Kementári Aulë the Smith Nienna Oromë Estë the Gentle Mandos (Námo) Vairë the Weaver Lórien (Irmo) Vána the Ever-young Tulkas Astaldo Nessa This table shows the fourteen Valar in 'due order' (i.e. in descending order of power). Names shown in bold indicate one of the eight Aratar, the mightiest of the Valar. does this help? Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

03-15-2001, 08:50 AM	#6
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice Posts: 679</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar According to Silm., I believe it states that Manwë is the mightiest among the Valar, then Ulmo above Varda, and then Aulë above Varda and Yavanna. After Aulë it seems unclear in what exact order it goes other than Oromë, Namo, Varda, Yavanna and Nienna complete the Aratar. It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

03-15-2001, 09:17 AM	#7
Elenanna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 98	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 80</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar well i'm not sure if it's correct (what i said earlier) i got it from www.myprecious.freeuk.com take it up w/ them if u disagree <img src=ohwell.gif ALT=":\"> Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

03-15-2001, 10:40 AM	#8
Hannah 3 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 64	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones Posts: 17</TD><TD><img src=http--images.neopets.com-images-newfirefaerie.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar Not regarding that table that just confuses me... Manwe was the most powerful but not fighting power. Tulkas would have won, though, as he was originally a god of war. Melkor became weaker as he became bad, a bit like Saruman did. Two or more Valar would have beaten Ungoliant, definately. =) ~*Hannah*~ If one puts an idea forward to a true englishman - always a rash thing to do - he never dreams of considering whether the idea is right or wrong. The only thing he considers of any importance is whether one believes in it oneself. ~ Oscar Wilde</p>

03-15-2001, 01:19 PM	#10
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice Posts: 680</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar I took a look at the site, it seems ok, since they had the Valar and Valier divided. It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

03-15-2001, 07:27 PM	#11
Imp Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 24	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 39</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> ... Manwe and Varda's powers both help boost eachothers </p>

03-15-2001, 09:58 PM	#12
Elenanna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 98	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 85</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: ... yes, i think its the same w/ all of the Valar and the Valier. Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

03-17-2001, 01:14 AM	#15
Elenanna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 98	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 92</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar i think ungoliant was evil in the beginning and it more means melkor corupted her to his ways. i dont think ungoliant was a maia since it says she came out of the great darkness, and that the light drove away most of the creatures that were there. p.s. im not sure about this so correct me if im wrong Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

03-17-2001, 09:50 AM	#16
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 155</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Ungoliant and the Valar <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> "The Eldar knew not whence she (Ungoliant) came;but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda,when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë,and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service."<hr></blockquote> All the Valar as well as their servants,the Maiar came into Arda from the darkness of the Void. I think that is what is meant here. As for Ungoliant's, origin,a corrupted Maia seems the most likely. Nothing else seems to fit. Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 3/17/01 11:12:41 am* __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

11-29-2002, 10:54 AM	#17
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	i dont think she could have beeten morgoth you gotta remember the sims where burning his hands also the balrogs beat her off and there far less powerful __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

11-30-2002, 06:30 PM	#18
thorondil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 53	Even after she gorged herself Ungoliant (even with Melkor) couldn't even have beat Orome or Tulkas alone, much less Manwe (he wasn't weak he was the strongest Vala). That's why she belched forth a big cloud of Darkness...and her and Melkor ran like hell...with the host of Orome hot on their tails. __________________ only that Part from which he came

11-30-2002, 07:11 PM	#19
-Imrahil- Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dol Amroth, upon the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 259	Agree Thorondil. __________________ My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

11-30-2002, 07:55 PM	#20
Lindril Arvilya Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In a box at the end of Harrison Ford's street, with a pair of binoculars Posts: 332	Ungoliant: munch munch slurp Melkor: Uh.... shouldn't we get going? Ungoliant: Just a minute, I'm still hungry. Melkor: What are you, a hobbit? Let's go! Any second now the Valar are gonna notice us... the lights go out Melkor: Well *&%#. Now how're we going to explain this. Ungoliant: I'm still hungry. Melkor: Shut up. __________________ Neo, watch out! Trinity's going to steal your pants! Pants thief! Pants thief!

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