Sauron's name

[Ancalagon]

I read somewhere recently, not sure of the source, that before Sauron became evil as such, he had the name of Mairon, does anybody know if this is the case?

[Inziladun]

I'm not aware of any canonical reference to that name. The name Sauron, "The Abhorred", was given by the Elves obviously after his allegiance to Morgoth, and if they had a name for him in his unfallen state, I haven't seen it.

Edit: Wikipedia does cite this source for the Mairon name, said to mean "The Admirable", but again, I'm not cognizant of a canonical citation.

[Andsigil]

The Lord of the Rings wikia says that the name was in Tolkien's notes, but never in any of his published works.

I can't find a source stating that it was actually found in his notes. I would imagine that Christopher Tolkien would have included it somewhere in the later publishings. Oh, well.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I can't find a source stating that it was actually found in his notes. I would imagine that Christopher Tolkien would have included it somewhere in the later publishings. Oh, well.

If Tolkien did have it somewhere in notes, I still wouldn't put much stock in it. Other things in "notes" were to have Bilbo be the main character in LOTR, and for Legolas and Gimli to leave the Fellowship and head home after Boromir's death.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

If Tolkien did have it somewhere in notes, I still wouldn't put much stock in it. Other things in "notes" were to have Bilbo be the main character in LOTR, and for Legolas and Gimli to leave the Fellowship and head home after Boromir's death.

Oh I don't know, if it's not contradicted by anything written later I'm willing to give it the time of day personally. I mean, it's not like trying to say Sauron was also Tevildo the Cat-Lord or something, is it? Or even that his name was Thû.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Oh I don't know, if it's not contradicted by anything written later I'm willing to give it the time of day personally. I mean, it's not like trying to say Sauron was also Tevildo the Cat-Lord or something, is it? Or even that his name was Thû.

Thû for Sauron at least appears in published work as collected by Christopher Tolkien, and I'm unaware that the same could be said for Mairon.

[Erestor]

Tolkien Gateway has a larger article about the issue of the journal in question. I belief we can be certain it's written by Tolkien himself, and I think we can assume it's written after the LotR first came out, seeing those notes are material to study the becoming of the second edition. But I'm not sure either where to place it in the hierarchy of the canon. Good reading material when I've got enough time on my hands.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ancalagon

I read somewhere recently, not sure of the source, that before Sauron became evil as such, he had the name of Mairon, does anybody know if this is the case?

I've been familiar with this for a few years now since it was indeed apparently revealed in some of Professor Tolkien's notes, although given the nature of their publication I can't verify it with absolute certainty. It's supposed to be in issue 17 of Parma Eldalamberon if anyone has access to it.

I've always quite liked the idea that Sauron went from being "Admirable" to "Abomination."

[Belegorn]

Those Elves... always labeling stuff.

[gondowe]

I don't like so much to speculate things not written by the professor, we have what we have as a mythology. In this case we have to note that both Melkor/Morgoth and Mairon/Sauron had turn to evil long ago (in the case of Sauron is speculative) the Elves awake. So we can say what we want, for example that the other Valar describe both as mighty and admirable before their fall. But Melko(r) did exist as a developed character in the original conception and Sauron as Sauron (not Tevildo or Thû) was developed as character in TLOTR. So Tolkien had to create a "past" for him.

But, as I said before, is speculate in a mythology as it stands, being from the point of view of the Elves (earlier), or mannish (later).

Greetings

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But that still doesn't help resolve the Mouth of Sauron problem--- set up by Aragorn's observation at Amon Hen that the dead Orcs bearing a white S-rune must be Saruman's because Sauron neither used white nor permitted "his true name" to be used.

(second continuity error- Gorbag's Orcs from Minas Morgul did in fact use white)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Note- "Words, Phrases and Passages" aka "Nomenclature" aka "Guide to the Names" etc. ought to be considered 'published' and thus canonical, as Tolkien provided a copy to A&U so that they in turn could give copies to foreign translators.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Note- "Words, Phrases and Passages" aka "Nomenclature" aka "Guide to the Names" etc. ought to be considered 'published' and thus canonical, as Tolkien provided a copy to A&U so that they in turn could give copies to foreign translators.

Well, since someone revived the thread...

... Nomenclature/Guide to the Names I do consider to be 'nearly published' by the author and thus high on the canonical shelving, but Words Phrases And Passages[WPP] is a different animal, no? Did Tolkien provide copies of WPP too? It doesn't seem very ready for that, at least in all parts.

Anyway I note how in WPP Tolkien changes his mind about the derivation of Sauron, for example:

SAWA-, disgusting, foul, vile: [Q saura, foul, vile, whence name Sauron]* prefix Q sau- as in saucare, doing or making a thing very badly. Not used in Sindarin as prefix; but the adjective saur occurs in the sense 'bad' of food etc., putrid, also substantive saw, filth, putrescence

also Q soa, filth (sawá). [added in left margin]

*This name is also used in late 3[rd] age Sindarin and could be a genuine Sindarin formation from saur; but is probably from Quenya. The ancient Sindarin name for Sauron was Gorthaur, of quite distinct origin: from ÑGOR- 'terror' and THUS- evil mist, fog, Darkness: ñgor(o)-thúsó > Gorthu 'Mist of Fear'; cf. thû, horrible darkness, black mist < thúsé.

Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King excellent' until after the downfall of Númenor. The Quenya form equivalent to Gorthu was: ñorthus, ñorsus, stem ñorsur-.

'No THAW-, cruel. Saura, cruel. Gorthaur'

SAWA 'bad, unhealthy, ill, wretched'

Just a simple 'no' then a new base THAW- appears.

Did Tolkien mean 'No' for everything he had just written, including the digression on Mairon? Mairon doesn't hail from the base SAWA- in any case, so I would say...

... maybe, yes... or simply 'no'

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

But that still doesn't help resolve the Mouth of Sauron problem--- set up by Aragorn's observation at Amon Hen that the dead Orcs bearing a white S-rune must be Saruman's because Sauron neither used white nor permitted "his true name" to be used.

My opinion is that Sauron allowed the mouth to use "Sauron" in the parley at the Morannon for the sake of simplicity. Saying "I am the Mouth of that-great-leader-whom-you-already-know-cos-he-did-all-sorts-of-cool-stuff-and-brought-down-Númenor-and-made-rings" just seems melodramatic.

A general ban on his troops and slaves saying that name could have stemmed from a "Big Brother" like attempt to be an impersonal, unapproachable, godlike Force rather than a creature with possible faults.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

(second continuity error- Gorbag's Orcs from Minas Morgul did in fact use white)

Well, maybe old Strider just didn't know everything. Perhaps he was thinking on;y of the Red Eye as a badge, and didn't know different assignments for Orcs might have carried other devices.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Or bonus Homerus dormitat. I suspect that T's thought when he wrote Aragorn's statement was that the epithet the Elves considered his "true" (i.e. their) name - Sauron/Gorthaur "the detestable" - was an insult that the Dark Lord naturally would have resented and never used, just like nobody I'm sure ever called the Duke of Normandy "William the Bastard" in his presence, or for that matter Grima ever called himself Wormtongue.

But then in the later chapter T simply forgot. For both simplicity and the requisite awesomeness, far better for the line to have been "I am the Mouth of the King of Kings" or "the Lord of Middle-earth" or even just "the Dark Lord."

[Erestor]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

But that still doesn't help resolve the Mouth of Sauron problem--- set up by Aragorn's observation at Amon Hen that the dead Orcs bearing a white S-rune must be Saruman's because Sauron neither used white nor permitted "his true name" to be used.

(second continuity error- Gorbag's Orcs from Minas Morgul did in fact use white)

Actually, that second one never struck me as a continuity error.

And he does not use white. The Orcs in service of Barad-dûr use the sign of the Red Eye.

I see the emphasized remark as an important specification. They were talking about the S-rune and the possibility that it would stand for Sauron. This would imply that those Orcs would be under Sauron's direct command, or at least as close as it could be, and thus in service of Barad-dûr. I think one should view the lands conquered by Sauron not as one big realm, but divided into different areas which were ruled by his vassals, comparable to the fiefs of Gondor. For this reason I don't view the armies from Morgul as Sauron's "personal" armies, but as the Witch-Kings armies. After all, their has to be a good reason the Morgul-Orcs carried a different emblem. In this light, the remark of Aragorn makes sense.

Don't have much to say about the other error though.