Gollum and Pleasure

[littlemanpoet]

"Bless us and splash us, my precioussss! I guess it's a choice feast; at least a tasty morsel it'd make us, gollum!"

"Is it nice, my preciousss? It is juicy? Is it scrumptiously crunchable?"

"Stew the rabbits!" squealed Gollum in dismay. "Spoil beautiful meat Smeagol saved for you, poor hungry Smeagol! What for? What for, silly hobbit? They are young, they are tender, they are nice. Eat them, eat them!"

Though the ring has brought great degradation on Gollum, one thing he has not lost is a very well developed sense of pleasure. It certainly makes Gollum fun to read.

Do you suppose Tolkien is saying something about this to his reader?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Good question! Interestingly, the examples you quote are all related to food. Are there other areas in which he also experiences pleasure? I don't recall him admiring a beautiful landscape - admittedly, they didn't travel together in the nicest places, but Ithilien was described as lovely by Frodo and Sam.

Is the joy of eating the last pleasure to survive?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Good question! Interestingly, the examples you quote are all related to food. Are there other areas in which he also experiences pleasure? I don't recall him admiring a beautiful landscape - admittedly, they didn't travel together in the nicest places, but Ithilien was described as lovely by Frodo and Sam.

Is the joy of eating the last pleasure to survive?

I think there may be a bit of Tolkien's Catholicism sneaking through too. All of the pleasures Gollum seems to retain are pleasures of the flesh (of which eating and drinking is probably the most fundamental). Tolkien was an old school Catholic and the Old school view was that, more or less, ALL the pleasures of the flesh were ultimately corrupting (the whole "The World, The Flesh and the Devil" thing) since they distracted you from spiritual manners (or why asceticism and mortification were generally regarded as such laudable acts). Gollum is corrupted by the ring, so it is only logical that his fleshy desires are enhanced. After all what the rings really feeds on is desire; if the victim has no pleasures he really has no desires to work on either. He or she doesn't even really have fear to work on since even fear carries a desire in it (the desire for what one fears not to occur, or to be able to prevent it)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I think there may be a bit of Tolkien's Catholicism sneaking through too. All of the pleasures Gollum seems to retain are pleasures of the flesh (of which eating and drinking is probably the most fundamental). Tolkien was an old school Catholic and the Old school view was that, more or less, ALL the pleasures of the flesh were ultimately corrupting (the whole "The World, The Flesh and the Devil" thing) since they distracted you from spiritual manners (or why asceticism and mortification were generally regarded as such laudable acts). Gollum is corrupted by the ring, so it is only logical that his fleshy desires are enhanced. After all what the rings really feeds on is desire; if the victim has no pleasures he really has no desires to work on either. He or she doesn't even really have fear to work on since even fear carries a desire in it (the desire for what one fears not to occur, or to be able to prevent it)

But on the complete opposite side, he has half of ME wishing that more people would value good food and cheer like hobbits do.

I must say, though, this is an excellent topic and something to think about - which I definitely will.

[Inziladun]

Well, fundamentally Gollum was a Hobbit, after all. Food was a pretty consistent obsession across the board for them. And in Gollum's situation, perhaps food was the only pleasure left to him that he could disassociate from the Ring, a small reminder of a simpler life.

x/d with Esty

[littlemanpoet]

A negative example: in the passage of the marshes, after seeing the faces in the pools:

"Poor Smeagol smells it, but good Smeagol bears it. Helps nce master. But that's no matter. The air's moving, change is coming. Smeagol wonders; he's not happy."

I am not referring to the sense of smell, but to the last sentence: he's not happy. If Smeagol is aware of being "not happy", this means that he still has within his capabilities, happiness, which is an emotional pleasure.

Mind you, the pleasure in food is twisted, perhaps by the Ring, perhaps by his isolation: he hates cooked food, must have it raw. He has become a cannibal at need, if one considers orcs and goblins some form of human(oid).

Also: "Smeagol always helps, if they asks - asks nicely." There is a self respect going on here, a felt pleasure at being dealt with in a 'nice' manner.

But a more malevolent pleasure must be acknowledged, if I remember aright - cannot seem to find the reference right now: in the self-debate between Smeagol and Gollum, there is the pleasure of relief, on Smeagol's part, that the time is not yet upon him to betray Frodo; but the pleasure Gollum feels in the 'tricksiness' of his plan to bring them to Shelob.

Then there is the saddest pleasure, what can only be called the spark of love Smeagol expresses just before Sam wakes up and accuses him of sneaking.

There is also the twisted pleasure of the absence of light.

Quite a range!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

But a more malevolent pleasure must be acknowledged, if I remember aright - cannot seem to find the reference right now: in the self-debate between Smeagol and Gollum, there is the pleasure of relief, on Smeagol's part, that the time is not yet upon him to betray Frodo; but the pleasure Gollum feels in the 'tricksiness' of his plan to bring them to Shelob.

I think you hit the nail in the head here by introducing the difference between Smeagol and Gollum.

For it seems to me clear (more or less) that there are two different persons or two sides of one person here - and two different ideas of pleasure at stake. And with those you could say "Tolkien is saying something about this to his reader".


But it wouldn't be Tolkien if it would be that simple.

Now the antagonism between Smeagol who wants to be loved and cared for and who likes to bind with others and Gollum who rejoices in vengeance, or the suffering of others if they advance his aims - or alternatively fill the void left by losing of the "drug" or help to get it back (one of the few strong interpretations of PJ and his team I kind of like; making Gollum like a heroin-addict is, I think, a good idea), but that kind of leaves your initial examples unanswered.


So how to fit the enjoyment of food?

First of all it is not sexual pleasure Gollun values. Tolkien's universe is very a-sexual of course, but with the kind of hedonism Gollum seems to represent it is worth noting it's not of sexual nature. Although physical pleasure - like being comfortable - isn't a strange idea to him either.

I could see both Smeagol and Gollum to enjoy good food. It's just that their "mutual" history has taught them to enjoy the raw meat instead of stewed rabbit with taters...


One way of seeing it is looking at Gollum as a child I think. The kind of instant gratification -problem all addicts have.

Another way of going at it would be looking at the "quality" of pleasures - going a bit biographical here then - and reading it as a mature person's view of the world where food is the pleasure number one when talking about physical pleasures.


A more profound (and possibly a bit far-reaching) interpretation would be that if you take Gollum as a symbol of (a fallen) humanity you find that beneath Good and Evil - the eating of the apple from the tree - you have only an animal state "beyond good and evil" (as Nietzsche said) which is just the limbo Gollum has slowly entered into- but with his two personalities is still fighting against, from both sides.

And there's a nice twist there: sometimes it feels Gollum is the happiest when just catching fish aka. not when he is doing his evil-plotting or trying to be a goodie.

The longing for paradise is a theme in Catholicism and has been interpreted in many ways... one of the enlightenment ways of looking at it was talking about the "noble savages" who were uncorrupted by "civilization".


Blah... this seems to be kind of associative ramble rather than well thought posting and I'll end here for the time being (and go to sleep).

But there should be ideas to agree and disagree with enough...

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And there's a nice twist there: sometimes it feels Gollum is the happiest when just catching fish aka. not when he is doing his evil-plotting or trying to be a goodie.

The contrasting thought that immediately comes to mind at reading this very good point is that the Smeagol side was essentially dormant for hundreds of years - until he starts spending time with Frodo and Sam.

Did Smeagol come "undormant" because of the oath of the Ring, or because of the human contact? Maygbe there's a mix here, I don't know.

Still, that dormancy of Smeagol speaks loudly to me that the higher pleasures - other than food - appear to be associated with Smeagol and not Gollum.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Did Smeagol come "undormant" because of the oath of the Ring, or because of the human contact? Maygbe there's a mix here, I don't know.

I would say both were behind Sméagol's new-found friendliness.
On the one hand, the oath he had sworn by the Ring brought him into a very close psychological relationship with the Ring-bearer, which forced him to "open up" emotionally.

On the other, I think the fact that his new companions were of his own kind was significant. It's said different times in the books that Hobbits generally preferred the company of other Hobbits, and Gollum wasn't nearly as friendly, it seems, with those noble Mirkwood Elves with whom he was a guest.