The significance of Merry and Pippin - the real hobbit ambassadors - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mirkgirl · 08-26-2002, 05:21 PM

When the theme is Merry’s importance the usual argument is Witch King. I’ve seen a lot of polls and threads arguing who actually killed the Witch King. I won't go into that 'murki' water, my goal is simply to emphasize on the link between Merry and the Nazgul through the whole book.

First of all we have the vital role of Merry in the beginning, he basically saved the absolutely unprepared journey (walk is the word maybe).

In the book we have three grand evils - Sauron, Saruman and the Nazgul, or the Witch-King in particular. If we link Sauron to Frodo and Saruman to Gandalf as direct oppositions, we have the Nazgul and?
Aragorn - that would spoil the idea of him as the one who must gather all the men and lead them against the dark lord.
Boromir is out of the game, Legolas and Gimli are representing their people and this task would overburden the character.
Eowyn is a good choice, but after all we need a fellowship member.
And so Merry is the perfect choice.

Merry and the Nazgul are deeply bounded throughout the book - first he is mistaken for one, which represents them as poles. Then he has a close encounter with a Nazgul in Bree. Also he's the first one to notice the Nazgul from Weathertop, but that's not so important.

And the amusing play with prophecy - first, not man but woman, second not man but hobbit, third not one but two...

One other frequently debated question is Pippin and Merry.
Yes, I see a lot of duality in these two. The way I see it that the two other hobbits represented the adventurous spirit of hobbits - Merry for the more mature and responsible one and Pippin for the touching enthusiasm, that is so appealing in the young ones. So there was no need IMO to separate the characters who are just the two sides of the same coin.

We have the two rulers death and especially they are the rulers of two strongly connected countries. The two fellow countries as we see from UT where is the tale where Cirion gives Eorl land to establish his country in new, better land paying back for his aid against the Colessairs(sp).

Here we have something which is strange at first glance - the older country, the main as we might say has a secretly mad ruler, who is discovered in public just when he crosses the line. While the new one has a ruler whose insanity is well seen and able to cover. I'm not forgetting that Gondor does not have its rightful ruler, but a Steward but that's not something that important as the only thing that holds the rulers being still Stewards after all those years is the single fact that this is Gondor (and maybe someone wise, name Galadriel, Gandalf?) and even Cirion is a Steward, the twelfth ruling. So this is a way to show how the older the established country is better in everything, even in covering the problems, which makes it harder to be helped.

The old and the new country have something to do with Merry and Pippin, I'm haven't lost the main as you might think. Pippin being the representative of young is in the old country, in Gondor and, as we see, he's the one who saves the country from the ruler, who suffers from the side effects of the established ruler whose problems are ignored because they cannot exist. So the old has something to study from the young one, even though for Pippin for the young one, the encounter is a lesson which he learns, and not teaches.

We cannot say that Merry, the most mature from the four hobbits (sorry all, it's not Frodo) has exactly the same relationship with the younger country, Rohan taken with the opposite sign. He just has the proper environment for him not be burdened with the country's (ruler's) troubles more than being... a friend. So infront of him lies the opportunity to be a hero in the actual battle.

Now I'd like just to say one more thing on this, though the post is way too long already and thought I have a lot more to say at the same time. Merry and Pippin are the actual representatives of the hobbits, of the hobbits' spirit - the spirit of friendship mainly. Because Frodo is burdened with a responsibility, which demands a lot of character but it is not so evident for the hobbits as whole. And Sam is the servant, other feelings trigger his actions. Merry and Pippin are the friends, who'd go anywhere for the friendship (and this was so neglected in the movie btw. I can't go without a critic to the movie, you know) and for the inner lust for adventures too. That's what explains their growth in height too - they are the next evolution step of hobbits, they are the selected ones who have to improve the species (way too biological I know).

(A bit pointless maybe, but don’t be too harsh I like Literature classes (; )

Ransom · 08-26-2002, 07:55 PM

Quote:

...Merry, the most mature from the four hobbits...

I have not yet seen this line of reasoning....would you care to explain? (I'm curious.)

On the conclusions that Merry and Pippin are the next step in hobbit evolution, I would have to disagree. It appears that the cause of their growth was the entwater, not any changes to their DNA.

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 08-26-2002, 08:22 PM

First I thought you were nuts. Then I thought you were kidding, making an elaborate and rather funny take on our over-thought discussions here in the Downs. Finally I realized that english is a second language for you. Could you condense what you are trying to say? It may make it more clear. So far, because of misused and absent prepositions primarily I believe, it is difficult to follow what you mean.

Thanks, Maril [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Eruwen · 08-27-2002, 02:30 PM

Ok...that was very interresting. But I would have to disagree with you on alot of that. Although you made some very very good points in that. So, first of all,

Quote:

Merry and the Nazgul are deeply bounded throughout the book

I don't really get what you mean by that. You lost me comletely on that one. Could you explain a little more, Please??

Quote:

Merry for the more mature and responsible one

Uh, wasn't it Merry AND Pippin who always got into trouble? I thought Frodo was the most responsible and mature. For instance, he was older and had alot more knowledge of everything. And Frodo just seemed to be one of the only Hobbits knowing what he was doing through the whole trip.

Quote:

Merry and Pippin are the actual representatives of the hobbits, of the hobbits' spirit - the spirit of friendship mainly

This one is the one I have to disagree with. Frodo and Sam are the ones I thought showed the most love for friendship. I mean, Sam practically carried Frodo up Mt. Doom. And when Frodo was captured by the Orcs, Sam risked his life just to save him. And I'm not even going to mention the whole Shelob thing. Cause that's just pure friendship in itself. Yes, Merry and Pippin did show a good friendship between each other. But I think Frodo and Sam were the ones who showed it even more.
__________________________

Other than those, I kinda got what you mean. And I'm not trying to argue or anything with you, Mirkgirl. I was just posting my opinion on what I thought. And I'm sorry if you possibly take some of the things I say personally, cause I didn't mean them to be a comment against what you're veiwpoint is. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Rumil · 08-28-2002, 07:27 PM

Nice topic Mirkgirl, (I don't think you're appreciably madder than anyone else here [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

It's struck me before now that at the start of the journey Merry does seem to have some authority over the other hobbits. Perhaps its because he's on 'home ground' round Buckleberry ferry, Buckland and the outskirts of the Old Forest. He also appears to be leader of the 'conspiracy unmasked'.

Later on this authority is less evident (although he didn't go throwing stones into wells in Moria like that fool of a Took!). When abducted by the Uruk Hai, Pippin shows the greater resourcefulness in devising an escape plan, but then Merry demonstrates that he has put his time in Rivendell to good use by remebering the map of the area.

HerenIstarion · 07-03-2004, 04:15 AM

Nice topic, Mirkgirl, and very original rendering of the issue.

I'd simply like to add that, even with everything above, there is more direct stress to Merry and Pippin, which falls upon the 'salvation' of Boromir, his release from the grip Ring has on him:

According to Gandalf:

Quote:

'Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake. But that is not the only part they have to play. They were brought to Fangorn, and their coming was like the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche in the mountains.

And, of course, already mentioned Saruman. The rendering of the episode in the movie is ugly to my liking - making Treebeard look quite a silly character, but I believe that PJ managed to grasp the essense - if not Merry and Pippin, Orthank would have survived (or would have fallen to Ents anyway, but not at the precise and crucial moment of battle at the Helm's Deep)

Mirkgirl · 07-04-2004, 08:25 AM

I have almost forgotten this... thanks for bringing it back to live H-I (:

I agree with what you said. I think I kind of ignored the hobbits influence on Boro... but of course Tolkien's characters are complicated and there's always more to... speculate. I have to say I agree on all you said about the scene in the movie, both the good and the bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ransom

I have not yet seen this line of reasoning....would you care to explain? (I'm curious.)

I believe Rumil answered that question (:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ransom

On the conclusions that Merry and Pippin are the next step in hobbit evolution, I would have to disagree. It appears that the cause of their growth was the entwater, not any changes to their DNA.

I'm not going into biology here... but still I think that it's rather likely something changing the height of a mamal to change its DNA too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marileangorifurnimaluim

First I thought you were nuts. Then I thought you were kidding, making an elaborate and rather funny take on our over-thought discussions here in the Downs. Finally I realized that english is a second language for you. Could you condense what you are trying to say? It may make it more clear. So far, because of misused and absent prepositions primarily I believe, it is difficult to follow what you mean.

I never hid that I was nuts (: Other than that, I'm sorry, I try to use proper English, but it's not so easy as it seems for native speaker. Especially as English is not my only foreign language.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eruwen

I don't really get what you mean by that. You lost me comletely on that one. Could you explain a little more, Please??

Well actually I don't think I can... it's just the examples I gave...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirkgirl

first he is mistaken for one, which represents them as poles. Then he has a close encounter with a Nazgul in Bree. Also he's the first one to notice the Nazgul from Weathertop, but that's not so important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eruwen

Uh, wasn't it Merry AND Pippin who always got into trouble?

mmmm thanks PJ is all I'm going to say (: It's actually Frodo's youth stealing things from farmer Maggot you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eruwen

This one is the one I have to disagree with. Frodo and Sam are the ones I thought showed the most love for friendship.

Well as I said, the main trigger for Sam is, at least in the beginning, the servent following the master. I don't mean to diminish his feelings in any way, but it's a fact that he is a servent and his love is (or at leasts starts as) kind of dog devotion. There's nothing wrong with it, but still it's not pure friendship to start with. Sam goes as a servent, Merry and Pippin go as friends. Am I being even more confusing? :/

Selmo · 07-05-2004, 07:02 AM

Like Mirkgirl, I too have always considered Merry to be the most mature and thoughtful of the four hobbits in the Fellowship, despite being younger than Sam and Frodo.

In the early chapters, Merry is the planner. Frodo seems to think that he can set out to walk to Rivendell with little thought or preparation. It's Merry who makes the house at Crickhollow available, it's Merry who arranges for Fatty Bolger to stay in the house to give the impression that Frodo stays there and it's Merry who organises transport for the party and provisions for the journey. He gives thought to the little things too, like having three baths ready so that Frodo, Sam and Pippin don't have to wait their turn to get cleaned up.
After Merry and Pippin are separated, Pippin offers his sword to Denethor on impulse; Merry gives his fealty to Theoden only after some thought, because he has come to love the old King.
In the closing chapters, Pippin plays the impetuous Lieutenent to Merry's thoughtful General. Pippin rushes off to gather troops from Tookborough while Merry takes command at Bywater, planning his campaign with Farmer Cotton.

We should not be surprised that Merry shows the most maturity. Sam, before the War, had little responsibility other than looking after the garden at Bag End. Frodo, with his inherited wealth, had nothing to do except study Elvish, write poetry and dream. Pippin was too young (under 33) to take on the burden of being heir to the Thain. Merry, however, was of age and would have been expected to take part in the running of Buckland. He was being trained in organisational and leadership skills in a way the others were not.

ninlaith · 07-12-2004, 11:59 PM

If you read interviews with Sir Tolkien close enough you recognize that these stories are all about love in friendship. Merry and Pippin portrayed a second element of love and devotion inside a friendship. They were more than friends but they were also more than brothers. I still cannot find the word for their type of friendship. Just undescribable. They had a deep understanding of one another. Merry may have been the so-called "more mature one" but Pippin had shown his quality many a time when the need came about. They looked out for one another. Billy Boyd portrayed the precise emotion that I imagined Pippin would when he was separated from Merry for what he knew could possibly be forever. Watch the movie, look for that emotion on each of their faces and you'll see the exact meaning of true friendship.

08-26-2002, 05:21 PM	#1
Mirkgirl Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 84	The significance of Merry and Pippin - the real hobbit ambassadors When the theme is Merry’s importance the usual argument is Witch King. I’ve seen a lot of polls and threads arguing who actually killed the Witch King. I won't go into that 'murki' water, my goal is simply to emphasize on the link between Merry and the Nazgul through the whole book. First of all we have the vital role of Merry in the beginning, he basically saved the absolutely unprepared journey (walk is the word maybe). In the book we have three grand evils - Sauron, Saruman and the Nazgul, or the Witch-King in particular. If we link Sauron to Frodo and Saruman to Gandalf as direct oppositions, we have the Nazgul and? Aragorn - that would spoil the idea of him as the one who must gather all the men and lead them against the dark lord. Boromir is out of the game, Legolas and Gimli are representing their people and this task would overburden the character. Eowyn is a good choice, but after all we need a fellowship member. And so Merry is the perfect choice. Merry and the Nazgul are deeply bounded throughout the book - first he is mistaken for one, which represents them as poles. Then he has a close encounter with a Nazgul in Bree. Also he's the first one to notice the Nazgul from Weathertop, but that's not so important. And the amusing play with prophecy - first, not man but woman, second not man but hobbit, third not one but two... One other frequently debated question is Pippin and Merry. Yes, I see a lot of duality in these two. The way I see it that the two other hobbits represented the adventurous spirit of hobbits - Merry for the more mature and responsible one and Pippin for the touching enthusiasm, that is so appealing in the young ones. So there was no need IMO to separate the characters who are just the two sides of the same coin. We have the two rulers death and especially they are the rulers of two strongly connected countries. The two fellow countries as we see from UT where is the tale where Cirion gives Eorl land to establish his country in new, better land paying back for his aid against the Colessairs(sp). Here we have something which is strange at first glance - the older country, the main as we might say has a secretly mad ruler, who is discovered in public just when he crosses the line. While the new one has a ruler whose insanity is well seen and able to cover. I'm not forgetting that Gondor does not have its rightful ruler, but a Steward but that's not something that important as the only thing that holds the rulers being still Stewards after all those years is the single fact that this is Gondor (and maybe someone wise, name Galadriel, Gandalf?) and even Cirion is a Steward, the twelfth ruling. So this is a way to show how the older the established country is better in everything, even in covering the problems, which makes it harder to be helped. The old and the new country have something to do with Merry and Pippin, I'm haven't lost the main as you might think. Pippin being the representative of young is in the old country, in Gondor and, as we see, he's the one who saves the country from the ruler, who suffers from the side effects of the established ruler whose problems are ignored because they cannot exist. So the old has something to study from the young one, even though for Pippin for the young one, the encounter is a lesson which he learns, and not teaches. We cannot say that Merry, the most mature from the four hobbits (sorry all, it's not Frodo) has exactly the same relationship with the younger country, Rohan taken with the opposite sign. He just has the proper environment for him not be burdened with the country's (ruler's) troubles more than being... a friend. So infront of him lies the opportunity to be a hero in the actual battle. Now I'd like just to say one more thing on this, though the post is way too long already and thought I have a lot more to say at the same time. Merry and Pippin are the actual representatives of the hobbits, of the hobbits' spirit - the spirit of friendship mainly. Because Frodo is burdened with a responsibility, which demands a lot of character but it is not so evident for the hobbits as whole. And Sam is the servant, other feelings trigger his actions. Merry and Pippin are the friends, who'd go anywhere for the friendship (and this was so neglected in the movie btw. I can't go without a critic to the movie, you know) and for the inner lust for adventures too. That's what explains their growth in height too - they are the next evolution step of hobbits, they are the selected ones who have to improve the species (way too biological I know). (A bit pointless maybe, but don’t be too harsh I like Literature classes (; ) __________________ "Hobbits! Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer behind this."

08-26-2002, 08:22 PM	#3
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	First I thought you were nuts. Then I thought you were kidding, making an elaborate and rather funny take on our over-thought discussions here in the Downs. Finally I realized that english is a second language for you. Could you condense what you are trying to say? It may make it more clear. So far, because of misused and absent prepositions primarily I believe, it is difficult to follow what you mean. Thanks, Maril [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

08-28-2002, 07:27 PM	#5
Rumil Sage & Onions Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Britain Posts: 894	Nice topic Mirkgirl, (I don't think you're appreciably madder than anyone else here [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) It's struck me before now that at the start of the journey Merry does seem to have some authority over the other hobbits. Perhaps its because he's on 'home ground' round Buckleberry ferry, Buckland and the outskirts of the Old Forest. He also appears to be leader of the 'conspiracy unmasked'. Later on this authority is less evident (although he didn't go throwing stones into wells in Moria like that fool of a Took!). When abducted by the Uruk Hai, Pippin shows the greater resourcefulness in devising an escape plan, but then Merry demonstrates that he has put his time in Rivendell to good use by remebering the map of the area. __________________ Rumil of Coedhirion

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07-05-2004, 07:02 AM	#8
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Like Mirkgirl, I too have always considered Merry to be the most mature and thoughtful of the four hobbits in the Fellowship, despite being younger than Sam and Frodo. In the early chapters, Merry is the planner. Frodo seems to think that he can set out to walk to Rivendell with little thought or preparation. It's Merry who makes the house at Crickhollow available, it's Merry who arranges for Fatty Bolger to stay in the house to give the impression that Frodo stays there and it's Merry who organises transport for the party and provisions for the journey. He gives thought to the little things too, like having three baths ready so that Frodo, Sam and Pippin don't have to wait their turn to get cleaned up. After Merry and Pippin are separated, Pippin offers his sword to Denethor on impulse; Merry gives his fealty to Theoden only after some thought, because he has come to love the old King. In the closing chapters, Pippin plays the impetuous Lieutenent to Merry's thoughtful General. Pippin rushes off to gather troops from Tookborough while Merry takes command at Bywater, planning his campaign with Farmer Cotton. We should not be surprised that Merry shows the most maturity. Sam, before the War, had little responsibility other than looking after the garden at Bag End. Frodo, with his inherited wealth, had nothing to do except study Elvish, write poetry and dream. Pippin was too young (under 33) to take on the burden of being heir to the Thain. Merry, however, was of age and would have been expected to take part in the running of Buckland. He was being trained in organisational and leadership skills in a way the others were not.

07-12-2004, 11:59 PM	#9
ninlaith Wight Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: in my hobbit hole Posts: 204	If you read interviews with Sir Tolkien close enough you recognize that these stories are all about love in friendship. Merry and Pippin portrayed a second element of love and devotion inside a friendship. They were more than friends but they were also more than brothers. I still cannot find the word for their type of friendship. Just undescribable. They had a deep understanding of one another. Merry may have been the so-called "more mature one" but Pippin had shown his quality many a time when the need came about. They looked out for one another. Billy Boyd portrayed the precise emotion that I imagined Pippin would when he was separated from Merry for what he knew could possibly be forever. Watch the movie, look for that emotion on each of their faces and you'll see the exact meaning of true friendship.