If Sauron had won? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

TheLostPilgrim · 10-23-2012, 11:53 AM

A question:

What was Sauron's "vision" for Middle Earth? He wanted control and power yes--but to what end? What a Middle Earth under the dominion of Sauron have been like? I have not read in a while, but a Middle Earth under say the power of Saruman (industrialized, polluted) seems easier to picture than what Sauron may have wanted.

Also, by the time of the Third Age, was Sauron still, in his "heart" a servant or soldier or worshiper of Morgoth? Was Morgoth's name still known in Mordor--or in other lands or amongst those other than the Wise and the Loremasters? Would he have instilled worship of Morgoth had he won in the Third Age, as the "state religion" of Middle Earth--or worship of himself?

Inziladun · 10-23-2012, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

What was Sauron's "vision" for Middle Earth? He wanted control and power yes--but to what end? What a Middle Earth under the dominion of Sauron have been like? I have not read in a while, but a Middle Earth under say the power of Saruman (industrialized, polluted) seems easier to picture than what Sauron may have wanted.

Look at Mordor, and a clear picture of Middle-earth under Sauron emerges. Why would he have treated a larger realm any differently than he did there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

Also, by the time of the Third Age, was Sauron still, in his "heart" a servant or soldier or worshiper of Morgoth? Was Morgoth's name still known in Mordor--or in other lands or amongst those other than the Wise and the Loremasters? Would he have instilled worship of Morgoth had he won in the Third Age, as the "state religion" of Middle Earth--or worship of himself?

Third Age Sauron, in one of JRRT's Letters, was said to have desired to be "king and god" to his subjects, and to have claimed he was "Melkor returned". In Mordor, it isn't apparent there was any sort of formal "worship" of Sauron: just a culture of absolute obedience borne of fear. Again, I think such a culture would have been spread to whatever regions Sauron controlled.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 10-23-2012, 05:04 PM

Basically I would side with what Zil said. Also, if it may seem unrealistic to you on first sight - the fact that he would have wanted the power only for power itself - let's not forget that in Tolkien's world, or in the picture of how it "works", evil cannot really do anything productive in the end, it only mocks or destroys. So effectively, he would really just create an unhappy desolate wasteland and only take pleasure from destroying his former enemies and making the misery of all living creatures greater and greater.

In other words: Sauron would have wanted only everyone to be his servants and to suffer, and that would be all. If he originally had some "inventive" ideals (which seems to be hinted at in the account in, I believe, it's mentioned in Unfinished Tales in relation to the Elven smiths of Eregion, possibly in Galadriel and Celeborn's tale, though I might be mistaken), like for example "making the world more efficient, making more powerful Rings, exploring the possibilities of concentrating power in small things and so forth", then those ideals would have distorted eventually and left him in a dead end from where he could not return to the previous, "mild" states of his ideals.

That's because it seems to me that once evil in Tolkien's world goes into defiance, it does not really go back. If you are on the "wrong path", you can either be redeemed and leave it, or then if you continue, you end up in the dead end where you can only be unhappy and wrathfully destroy others' work. That seems to be the perfect case with Melkor, but also with e.g. Saruman, and it would be the same with Sauron. I believe there is really no room for compromises: I don't believe a Melkor who would have been granted his wish to, say, build some parts of the world according to his design would have ended with that and been happy. He would want more, then more, then more, until he would have reached the limit of his powers, realised there is no room to expand to further, and he would start destroying, out of spite. Or something like that. I hope you get the general idea I have in mind.

d4rk3lf · 10-28-2012, 03:42 PM

If Sauron have won, then the middle earth would become similar place like this earth we are now living in.

Inziladun · 10-28-2012, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

If Sauron have won, then the middle earth would become similar place like this earth we are now living in.

Then again, there are places and persons in this world that are openly ever-present examples of Light and Goodness, and I doubt that would have been tolerated in a Sauron-ruled Middle-earth. Evil there is here, but as Gandalf said: "All is not dark."

Draugohtar · 10-28-2012, 08:35 PM

If Sauron had won, then yes we could have expected industrial expansion but with an actively horrifying intent towards the beauty and peace of Middle Earth; as opposed to amoral industrial western countries.

The worst excesses of the 'machine' in our world would have been taken to their nth expression of destructive capacity.

However, I suspect that the Valar would have interceded before Sauron marred forever the whole beauty of Arda.

10-23-2012, 11:53 AM	#1
TheLostPilgrim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 72	If Sauron had won? A question: What was Sauron's "vision" for Middle Earth? He wanted control and power yes--but to what end? What a Middle Earth under the dominion of Sauron have been like? I have not read in a while, but a Middle Earth under say the power of Saruman (industrialized, polluted) seems easier to picture than what Sauron may have wanted. Also, by the time of the Third Age, was Sauron still, in his "heart" a servant or soldier or worshiper of Morgoth? Was Morgoth's name still known in Mordor--or in other lands or amongst those other than the Wise and the Loremasters? Would he have instilled worship of Morgoth had he won in the Third Age, as the "state religion" of Middle Earth--or worship of himself?

10-23-2012, 05:04 PM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Basically I would side with what Zil said. Also, if it may seem unrealistic to you on first sight - the fact that he would have wanted the power only for power itself - let's not forget that in Tolkien's world, or in the picture of how it "works", evil cannot really do anything productive in the end, it only mocks or destroys. So effectively, he would really just create an unhappy desolate wasteland and only take pleasure from destroying his former enemies and making the misery of all living creatures greater and greater. In other words: Sauron would have wanted only everyone to be his servants and to suffer, and that would be all. If he originally had some "inventive" ideals (which seems to be hinted at in the account in, I believe, it's mentioned in Unfinished Tales in relation to the Elven smiths of Eregion, possibly in Galadriel and Celeborn's tale, though I might be mistaken), like for example "making the world more efficient, making more powerful Rings, exploring the possibilities of concentrating power in small things and so forth", then those ideals would have distorted eventually and left him in a dead end from where he could not return to the previous, "mild" states of his ideals. That's because it seems to me that once evil in Tolkien's world goes into defiance, it does not really go back. If you are on the "wrong path", you can either be redeemed and leave it, or then if you continue, you end up in the dead end where you can only be unhappy and wrathfully destroy others' work. That seems to be the perfect case with Melkor, but also with e.g. Saruman, and it would be the same with Sauron. I believe there is really no room for compromises: I don't believe a Melkor who would have been granted his wish to, say, build some parts of the world according to his design would have ended with that and been happy. He would want more, then more, then more, until he would have reached the limit of his powers, realised there is no room to expand to further, and he would start destroying, out of spite. Or something like that. I hope you get the general idea I have in mind. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

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10-28-2012, 03:42 PM	#4
d4rk3lf Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 18	If Sauron have won, then the middle earth would become similar place like this earth we are now living in.

10-28-2012, 08:35 PM	#6
Draugohtar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 23	If Sauron had won, then yes we could have expected industrial expansion but with an actively horrifying intent towards the beauty and peace of Middle Earth; as opposed to amoral industrial western countries. The worst excesses of the 'machine' in our world would have been taken to their nth expression of destructive capacity. However, I suspect that the Valar would have interceded before Sauron marred forever the whole beauty of Arda.