The Afterlife, Reincarnation, and Courtly Love

[Idril]

Hello! I posted this question to War of the Ring a short time ago and was met with limited response. Hopefully my luck will be better over here. : )

Essentially, at its bare bones, my question is- Is the Fellowship reunited in the Afterlife?

I understand the complexity and separation of Edain and Eldar in the Hall of Mandos, but what happens after Frodo, Sam, and Gimli's mortality is again drained in Aman? Where is this place Mandos sends the souls of the Edain? Gandalf, a Maia, and Legolas, an Immortal, obviously stay in Valinor. Word on the street is Tolkien alludes to a place where Edain and Eldar are reuinted after Arda's end (similar to the Judeo-Christian Paradise/Heaven) in "Morgoth's Ring." I have only read chapters available on the internet, so please feel free to enlighten me on what he actually says!

--And I actually have two more questions, bear with me.
1) Is it at all possible that Legolas is the reincarnation of his grandfather, Oropher, who died in the Last Alliance? I've seen several forms that discuss Legolas' heritage, but not Oropher and reincarnation. According to Tolkien in "Morgoth's Ring" (Laws & Customs Among the Eldar), elves who choose to be reincarnated are born again into their immediate family and never take the name they had before they died. It's a stretch, but Legolas fits the description.

2) I am also curious as to why male Edain and female Eldar always fall in love. For example, Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Aragorn and Arwen. Why not vise versa? I have a hunch this was Tolkien incorporating courtly love (a Medieval idea originating from the French Troubadours) into Middle Earth, but I don't know for sure. I personally would find it more romantic if an immortal male Eldar fell in love with a mortal female. The male would have to give up (or should give up) his immortality (granted by Eru Illuvatar) for his lover, disrupting the societal gender roles constructed in Middle Earth (Medieval Ages and early 1900's Europe). M.E. is, after all, modeled after a male-dominated power structure. I wonder how things would play out.

[Galadriel55]

Welcome Idril! I like your nickname!

I can't claim to be the History of ME expert (though some here are), but I'll try to give my two cents on this.

The souls of Men may leave the world upon death, which means that they leave the Halls of Mandos. I don't know where they go, probably to the Void since it's the only place we know about outside Ea. It is said that they will be in Iluvatar's "choir" and will make the second Music after Dagor Dagorath.

I am not sure if the souls of Elves will also leave the world after it is broken and remade. I think that when Finrod died he told Beren something that would suggest that perhaps they would meet again in another world, or something that is just as confusing. I don't have the books with me to quote, but I will do so when I have them.

As for your 1) question, I don't think so. I think Tolkien changed his mind after what you read in Morgoth's Ring (I don't know, I never read it), because there are examples of the opposite. Finrod is one. Some time after his death , he, reincarnated, walked with his father Finarfin in Valinor (which suggests that he was not reborn as someone else). And the more obvious one, Glorfindel. He is the very same one in LOTR as in The Sil. He reincarnated and was sent back to ME.

[Puddleglum]

The "Fea" of men (spirit) do leave "Ea" ("The World that Is") after death.

Tolkien has repsented "Ea" as the embodiement and living out of a Grand Theme of music (cf "Music of the Ainur") - essentially a Drama or Story, designed by Eru and adorned by the actions of his created beings (from Ainur to Quendi, Atani, Dwarves, etc). Thus, he talks in some of his Letters (eg #200) about the Valar being required to "remain in it 'until the story was finished'".

Men (and Hobbits as a branch of Atani) have a special gift to be able to leave the story and step OUTSIDE (where they, perhaps, can watch the story unfold). Given that Tolkien was a devout Christian (& Catholic) it seems a fair presumption that, upon leaving Ea, they would dwell in the Halls of Eru (the "Void" simply being the places outside Ea that are not dwelling places of Eru and the Ainur).

Saying Mandos "sends" the spritis of Men, etc "may" not be fully accurate. I've thought that their Fea depart the world (by the gift of Eru) and their destination thereafter is no longer in the hands of the Valar. Whether they travel on their own, or are escorted by Ainur (or by Eru himself) is speculation - I've not heard/read anything about that by Tolkien.

On their time in Aman, Tolikien (in Letter 246) states of Frodo that "he went to both a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred'." To "be healed - if that could be done, before he died." Sam, presumably, would have a similar experience.

Gimli, being a Dwarf, is a bit of an odd case. Aule made the Dwarves (tho Eru gave them a place in his creation) but there are uncertain reports or beliefs by Dwarves and others about their fate after "dying". They believe they go to Mandos and their wait the end when they will aid Aule in the remaking of Arda. But it is never said certainly whether that belief is accurate or not.

Silmarillion says that it is believed (by the Valar) that Atani (Men) will join in the Second Music of the Ainur after the end of Ea, but that Eru has not revealed what he has in store for Quendi (Elves). "Morgoth's Ring" has a section "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" which discusses this in some detail and especially how this requires a special Trust and Hope (Estel) of the Eldar. They know they will live till the end of Ea, but have NO PROMISE of surviving after that, while Men have the promise of dwelling eternally with Eru (tho they live only a short time with Ea before "dying").

About Legolas being Oropher? I've never read anything by Tolkien that suggested such was the case. And, as Galadriel55 noted, Tolkien shifted to going with the rebodying of slain Eldar - which meant they were rebodied by the Valar in Valinor. Only in very unusual cases would they then manage to travel back to Middle Earth (Glorfindel is the only such case I'm aware of).

For your Q2, I think it's important to consider you are working from an extremely small sample-set. You mentioned three cases (Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril & Aragor/Arwen). I can think of exactly Two other cases in the whole history of Arda ...

• Imrazor and Mithrellas. Imrazor was, per legend, the father of the first lord of Dol Amroth. Mithrellas was a maiden companion of Nimrodel.
• Aegnor (brother of Finrod) and Andreth (women of the house of Beor)

The latter was never consumated, but the Athrabeth makes clear Aegnor's love for Andreth was real, and only wisdom led him to forbear - for Andreth's sake (a whole other discussion).

So, only 5 cases in all of history. And one of those was a male Elf loving a Female Human. Not purely according to odds of pure chance, but if you flipp a coin 5 times - there will be occasions when you get 4 heads and 1 tail.

Then, too, it could be a simple case of Human Men (in such times of unrest and war and danger) tend to travel to seek out Elves more than either human women traveling or any elves seeking out men. Thus there will be more meetings between Human Men and Elvish Females than the opposite.

[Mumriken]

The only ones who are sure to be meeting eachother again are, Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, Frido, Boromir. Gimli will help Aule rebuild Arda and the elves...who knows. I'm not sure what Gandalf will be doing either.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

The only ones who are sure to be meeting eachother again are, Aragorn, Merry, Pippin, Frido, Boromir. Gimli will help Aule rebuild Arda.

I don't think there's any evidence for that.

[Mumriken]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

I don't think there's any evidence for that.

That is if they can find eachother after death. There must be many dead "man" spirits flying around out there in the void.

[Idril]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"Welcome Idril! I like your nickname!

I can't claim to be the History of ME expert (though some here are), but I'll try to give my two cents on this.

The souls of Men may leave the world upon death, which means that they leave the Halls of Mandos. I don't know where they go, probably to the Void since it's the only place we know about outside Ea. It is said that they will be in Iluvatar's "choir" and will make the second Music after Dagor Dagorath.

Thank you and mae govannen! I appreciate every two cents I can get since I am (obviously) no expert either. ; )

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Tolkien has repsented "Ea" as the embodiement and living out of a Grand Theme of music (cf "Music of the Ainur") - essentially a Drama or Story, designed by Eru and adorned by the actions of his created beings (from Ainur to Quendi, Atani, Dwarves, etc). Thus, he talks in some of his Letters (eg #200) about the Valar being required to "remain in it 'until the story was finished.

Forgive me if this question is redundant or has already answered in another form (it's been a while since I've read either The Silmarillion or The Lost Tales), but would the Valar cease to exist in the Second Music after Dagor Dagorath? I recently read "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" where Finrod describes the Eldar as being tethered to Arda (unlike Men), and Arda to the Valar. If the Valar/Arda cease to exist surely the Eldar will as well?

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Men (and Hobbits as a branch of Atani) have a special gift to be able to leave the story and step OUTSIDE (where they, perhaps, can watch the story unfold). Given that Tolkien was a devout Christian (& Catholic) it seems a fair presumption that, upon leaving Ea, they would dwell in the Halls of Eru (the "Void" simply being the places outside Ea that are not dwelling places of Eru and the Ainur).

As a practicing Christian it seems to me that the Void is an allusion to Purgatory, a sort of in between worlds. Tolkien, a Catholic, would have certainly believed in the existence of Purgatory (I personally am Methodist and do not). If the Void is Purgatory, between Arda/Aman, point A, and the Beyond, point B, what is point B? The time of Second Music-- a tertiary world equivalent to the Judeo-Christian "Heaven"? From the information you have given: Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Boromir, and Aragorn will be seeing each other in the Afterlife. Gimli has a fighting chance since Eru granted the Dwarves a place in his Grand Music, as do Legolas and Gandalf, Immortals.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

About Legolas being Oropher? I've never read anything by Tolkien that suggested such was the case. And, as Galadriel55 noted, Tolkien shifted to going with the rebodying of slain Eldar - which meant they were rebodied by the Valar in Valinor. Only in very unusual cases would they then manage to travel back to Middle Earth (Glorfindel is the only such case I'm aware of).

The inconsistency in canon is addressed by Christopher in the prologue to "Laws & Customs Among the Eldar." Is there an updated account of things that are set-in-stone canon published by C.T.? Thank you for your insight on Legolas and Oropher!

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

For your Q2, I think it's important to consider you are working from an extremely small sample-set. You mentioned three cases (Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril & Aragor/Arwen). I can think of exactly Two other cases in the whole history of Arda ...

• Imrazor and Mithrellas. Imrazor was, per legend, the father of the first lord of Dol Amroth. Mithrellas was a maiden companion of Nimrodel.
• Aegnor (brother of Finrod) and Andreth (women of the house of Beor)

The latter was never consumated, but the Athrabeth makes clear Aegnor's love for Andreth was real, and only wisdom led him to forbear - for Andreth's sake (a whole other discussion).

I had forgotten about Aegnor and Andreth. In "Laws & Customs" Tolkien makes note that marriages/consummation among the Valar only happen during times of peace. So yes, their love was real enough, but unfortunately destined to fail because of the Siege of Angband. My actual question which I failed to communicate: Is the love between female Eldar and male Edain an example of courtly love? Tolkien incorporated several customs of the Medieval Ages and literary devices of Epic poetry into his work (weregild is actually name-dropped by Boromir in FotR). I am curious if anyone else saw the correlation.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Idril

would the Valar cease to exist in the Second Music after Dagor Dagorath?

Short answer, I would say, is No. The Valar "are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world." (LoT #133) and "this condition Illuvatar made" (referring to the Valar coming in) "or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be bounded in the World, to be within it forever, until it is complete." (Music of the Ainur). More is said that could be taken ambiguously, but I think this is the essence that Eru won't allow them to bow out of their task - no matter how long it is. THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF LOVE. But, having being before and distinct from Ea, when it's story is over they would (I believe) still "be".

Elves are a bit different in that they have their being in and from Arda (being both Fea, spirit, AND Hroa, physical body). Estel would say that Eru must have a plan and purpose for all his children beyond the "full making" - but Estel (hope) is all they have in that regards.

Originally Posted by Idril

it seems to me that the Void is an allusion to Purgatory, a sort of in between worlds.

The Ainulindale says that "Melkor ... had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame ... and he was impatient of the emptiness of {the Void}" and also "Illuvatar went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur ... But when they were come into the Void..."

From these, and other, statements it seems that the Void is less a Purgatory (a place for the dead to go and await judgement) than simply the places OTHER THAN the places where the Ainur were to dwell. Also, that it existed (if that is even the right term) before Ea.

Originally Posted by Idril

Is the love between female Eldar and male Edain an example of courtly love?

It could be. I think it's a great observation and question, but I fear I'm not up enough on the Medieval concept (as far as details) to contribute much. Hopefully others can chime in.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Idril

My actual question which I failed to communicate: Is the love between female Eldar and male Edain an example of courtly love? Tolkien incorporated several customs of the Medieval Ages and literary devices of Epic poetry into his work (weregild is actually name-dropped by Boromir in FotR). I am curious if anyone else saw the correlation.

Courtly love, in the medieval literary sense, is guilty love: Tristan and Isolde, Lancelot and Guinevere, the Breton Bisclavret, Le Roman du Châtelain de Coucy et de la Dame de Fayel, and even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and Boccaccio's Decameron, all deal with adulterous or illicit love. Tolkien does not condone such unions and the Eldar/Edain courtships are not at all in the style of medieval courtly love.

You will find more detail from epics of the early Middle Ages present in Tolkien's work, as opposed to the high Middle Ages when courtly love was in fashion. Weregild, for instance, is mentioned in Beowulf, and Isildur refers to the One Ring as "weregild" in payment for the death of his father, Elendil. So too, the naming conventions for many of the Dwarves (and Gandalf) come from the Völuspá, and many of the plot points in the story of Turin Turambar were derived from the Kalevela, both drawn, like Beowulf, from oral tradition that came from the early Middle Ages, or perhaps predates it altogether.

One might as well throw in other literary works such as the Old Testament, the Welsh Mabinogion, Plato's Dialogues, and the Icelandic Eddas and the Volsunga Saga, as far as veins of literature that Tolkien mined.

[Idril]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Courtly love, in the medieval literary sense, is guilty love: Tristan and Isolde, Lancelot and Guinevere, the Breton Bisclavret, Le Roman du Châtelain de Coucy et de la Dame de Fayel, and even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales and Boccaccio's Decameron, all deal with adulterous or illicit love. Tolkien does not condone such unions and the Eldar/Edain courtships are not at all in the style of medieval courtly love.

You seem to be knowledgable about the concept of courtly love. Although I am a history major with a concentration in the Medieval Ages I must admit I've never heard it being bluntly described as "guilty." I'm 20, I'm young, I have a lot to learn, and I'll trust your judgement on this. : )
My impression of courtly love is that a love based on admiration bordering on idolatry, if "love" can exist under the circumstances. For instance, a knight who has fallen for a lady far above his station. He understands he will never be able to be with her but continues to harbor illicit feelings regardless. The lady is put upon a pedestal as a sort of otherworldly creature --unattainable, divine. That seems more in the vein of Aragorn and Arwen's relationship, does it not? A Mortal (albeit one of royal lineage) who has fallen in love with the Immortal Evenstar, his foster-sister.
Courtly love of the High Middle Ages did have a certain element of sadomasochism that Aragorn and Arwen's relationship lacks, and that I in no way imply it possesses. In my opinion, their love (Aragorn's), while pure, did include a near-idolatrous edge to it at first. If I remember correctly, Aragorn fell to the ground in awe when he first met Arwen because he believed her to be the vision of Luthien Tinuviel. Arwen was charmed by his mistake but chose not to return his love until some time later. In comparison to other couples in LoTR: Sam and Rosie and Faramir and Eowyn, their love doesn't quite appear balanced.

Perhaps the lack of balance is due to Aragorn's (Estel) age when he first met Arwen. Some 20-odd years, was it not?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Idril

Where is this place Mandos sends the souls of the Edain?

The Edain go to one of the halls in Mandos, "whence none can escape, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast and strong are those halls" [Sil, p. 52] but unlike the Elves they are not summoned, or given a choice to come back. Only one instance in Beren occured where someone was brought back. I'm not sure if those halls are actually part of Aman though. Then again since the souls of Elves are bound to the world maybe they are. It is said, "the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world" and that "Death is their fate, the gift of Illuvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy." [p. 38] Some like Finrod debated Man's fate but it is said, "What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the Halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Illuvatar alone save Manwe knows wither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea." [p. 121]

Among the Edain of old there was the belief that Melkor had corrupted their nature because in their beginnings they were not short lived. "Men are not now as they were, nor as their true nature was in the beginning." [MR, p. 309] This was probably due to Melkor causing strrife that these legends came about. Andreth was one of the Wise among the Edain and she was learned in the lore of the houses of Beor and of Marach who say, "plainly that Men are not by nature short-lived, but have become so through the malice of the Lord of the Darkness... the Wise among Men say: 'We were not made for death, nor born ever to die. Death was imposed upon us.'... we knew that in our beginning we had been born never to die... born to life everlasting, without any shadow of any end." [p. 309, 314]. She said that the difference between death for the Eldar and Men is that, "dying we die, and we go out to no return... an uttermost end... it is abominable; for it is also a wrong that is done to us." [p. 311] Finrod claimed that such a thing would be an amazing feat, "to change the doom of a whole people of the Children, to rob them of their inheritance: if he could do that in Eru's despite, then greater and more terrible is he by far than we guessed... to doom the deathless to death, from father unto son, and yet to leave to them the memory of an inheritance taken away, and the desire for what is lost: could the Morgoth do this?... I do not believe your tale. None could have done this save the One... How did ye anger Eru?" [p. 312-313]. Finrod said that the Eldar percieve that, "the fëar of Men are not, as are ours, confined to Arda, nor is Arda their home." [p. 315] Finrod said they are guests in Arda, like one visiting a country seeing new things, whereas Arda was the home of the Eldar, and they live in that country and always must.