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01-28-2004, 04:17 PM | #1 |
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gandalf and witch-king
if eowyn and merry didn't kill the witck-king,do you yhink gandalf could of defeated him?
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01-28-2004, 08:13 PM | #2 |
Wight
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I think he could have, but he WOULDN'T have. The prophecy that says "No man can kill him" simply seales someone's fate, IMO. He is killable by a male, but a male will NOT kill him.
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The Warrior Hobbit Nîn o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer; Rimmo nîn Bruinen, dan in Ulaer! |
01-28-2004, 10:27 PM | #3 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Laurelindorenan
Posts: 225
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Gandalf had already defeated him in the door of Minas Tirith. And from what Gandalf says, he was planning on pursuing the Witch King and neutralizing the menace he represented.
Gandalf was a maiar... an ainu, in his origin as powerful as Sauron. If Olorin was the wisest of the maia, then he must know the counterspell that kept the Witch King alive... untie the "unseen sinews" of the Wiki...
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"In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring. |
01-29-2004, 12:46 AM | #4 |
Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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You don't know that. And how did Gandalf 'defeat' him at the gate, Iarhen?
Cibbwin; the thing about the WK not falling at the hand of man included Gandalf. It did not include male humans, apparently, but it did include a certain Hobbit. |
01-31-2004, 03:17 PM | #5 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Flitwick, Beds
Posts: 47
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Yes, Gandalf didn't defeat him, Witchy merely turned away to focus on the onslaught by the Rohirrim, as he was then mounted on his fell beast. Thats my biggest disappointment, I would love to have read about a battle between Witch-King and Gandalf.
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01-31-2004, 04:37 PM | #6 |
Pile O'Bones
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I don't think that Gandalf could have done it. Well at least he would have died as well. Prophecy has a nasty habit of coming true. I am sure the wisest of the maiar knew that. He only confronted him at the gate because he was the only one who could have. I am sure he was thinking, "Here we go again, I am confronting evil incarnate in a narrow pasage once more...I wonder what my next incarnation will be like?"
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01-31-2004, 06:07 PM | #7 | |
Spectre of Decay
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As I believe Gwaihir was saying earlier, Glorfindel's prophecy regarding the Witch-king is "not by the hand of man will he fall". He does not say that the Witch-king cannot be killed by a man, but that this will not happen.
That being said, Gandalf is not a man: he is an angelic emissary of the Valar, of the same order of beings as Sauron himself; and his human form is as temporary as a suit of clothes. The Witch-king is a corrupted human, and therefore of a lesser order, so his chances of defeating Gandalf, whatever powers he may have been awarded by his master, are slim to none. The Nazgûl are in fact much less powerful than the films make them appear. In a letter, Tolkien wrote of them: Quote:
In any case, I suspect that when Glorfindel made his prophecy on the battlefield long before he may have had an intimation of exactly how matters would turn out at the Pelennor Fields. This is why he made no mention of how the Witch-king could be defeated, or who would be able to kill him. It's quite possible that anyone could have done it, given the right weapon, but that Éowyn and Merry were destined actually to do the deed.
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01-31-2004, 06:28 PM | #8 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Plains of Rohan
Posts: 38
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I've been wondering about this idea myself. It had occured to me that perhaps Pippin's appearing to drag Gandalf away to rescue Faramir may have saved his (Gandalf's) life. When he was Gandalf the Grey, it took all his strength to stand up to a Balrog, itself a kind of demonic being created by Morgoth. Yet it was true that he was a Maia and had powers against the Nazgul no Man had. I'm not at all sure.
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01-31-2004, 06:44 PM | #9 |
Spectre of Decay
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Morgoth didn't create the Balrogs. They were Maiar that were corrupted to his service at the beginning of the world. As such the Balrog was of the same order as Gandalf.
There were certain limitations placed on the Istari when first they came to Middle-earth: they could feel the same pangs of the flesh as the humans they resembled, and their use of their powers was restricted. When Gandalf was sent back, his powers were greatly increased, although I doubt that he had full use of them. I find it difficult to believe that someone who could defeat a corrupted Maia with limited powers would find it difficult to defeat a corrupted human with those limitations relaxed.
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01-31-2004, 07:06 PM | #10 |
Night In Wight Satin
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,043
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Though some of the answers are definitely BOOKSworthy, the overall topic is based on a general opinion question, so I'm moving it over to Novices and Newcomers where it belongs.
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