The Bridge of Khazad-dum

[The Barrow-Wight]

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The Bridge of Khazad-dum was said to be a last defense should the First Hall be taken. Surely there must have been other ways in to the deeper (and much more expansive) 'inner halls'. How else could such mass amounts of Dwarves pass through the place. Any thoughts on this?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Suldaledhel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Well certainly there must have. But I dont recall any specific mentions during my readings, but I'll take a closer look.

</p>

[lindil]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> atlas?


Excellent Question! I just rea chapter a couple of days ago and wondered about the layout of Moria.
And why did the Orcs man the Lorien side of Moria and its door and not the side that opened up into the abandoned Eregion?
If anyone has the Atlas of M.E[ have seen it but don't own it] it may have some interesting insights on the bridge question.
lindil

</p>

[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: atlas?

Arguably, Lindil may have hit the answer, if indirectly. The main comings and goings of the dwarves, initially, might have been supposed to be through the west door that communicated with Eregion. The chiefest threat was from Dol Guldur which which Durin's Bridge defended against. So the inconvenience was tolerable. The orcs, likewise, faced their largest perceived threats from the East, (Lorien, etc.) They could expect very little in the way of active threat from depopulated Eregion. They had the secret door and the watcher there anyhow. Hardly a comprehensive answer, just some common-sense rationalization.

</p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Wasn't that evil monster from the lake

Wasn't that evil monster from the lake guarding the west door?

</p>

[Grand Admiral Reese]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Wasn't that evil monster from the lake

The Watcher in the Water is a formidible guardian. The Orcs wouldn't really need to guard that side. The door was shut, and the Watcher was there. The Watcher would be just as dangerous to Orcish guards as to would-be invaders.


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[gamegie]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I can't see the bridge being considered in any way as the main entrance, but consider this. If the Balrog could walk over the bridge and there is no mention of the company members having any problem with the narrowness of the bridge while passing it ( exept for Gandalf of course), why would the dwarves have any difficulties.

Frankly i would much prefer to have such barrier protecting my domain and be able to sleep easy at night than not to have it. Crossing it is but a small worry!

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

It wasn't the fear of crossing that I was considering, it was the incredible bottleneck such a barrier would create for any large group of beings to cross.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[mwcfrodo]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I think if the situation were desperate enough to retreat across the bridge, the large number would have already been seriously reduced and many would have been trapped on other floors. Most likely, it would have been hoped that a few could get out to seek aid or preserve the lineage (as was the case with the secret entry to the last lonely mountain) -- only the King under the mountain escaped by that route.

</p>

[gamegie]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I cannot picture any bottle-neck occuring on the bridge. I see dwarves as very meticulous people. And I see them very good at moving in ordered and regimented lines.

Maybe you can tell me what this route out of the Moria was used for. Was it a link to the Lothlorien? If so why would it be very populated as dwarves and elves are not in good terms.

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000034>gamegie</A> at: 9/4/00 10:29:26 pm

[HerenIstarion]

It is not certain that dwarves ever planned leaving Moria at all, and that is the reason of having such a narrow bridge and opportunity of bottle-necks and whatever. Moria was first place of awakening of dwarvish forefather, of Durin himself indeed, so it was impossible for any given longbeard dwarf to even imagine that his race would be forced out of Khazad-dûm. So there were no secret doors on the west side and so on as it was in Erebor - a kingdom smaller an newer by far than Moria, where all fortification were outword oriented.After all, nobody expected a balrog as a home danger. So there was no planning of leaving Moria in large numbers in haste (save marching to war, but that would be well ordered and would not cause bottle-neck), as dwarves ever retreated inwards, not outwards.

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Inward-retreating is a very finite and dangerous idea. Dwarves were not stupid. No matter how much they loved their caverns and disliked the wide open skies, they understood very well that to stand in a corner left nowhere to run but out... unless they wanted to die. It didn't work for Morgoth, the most powerful being ever to menace Middle-Earth, so why would the Dwarves lock themselves in a hole??

Every creature knows by instinct to have a path of retreat... and a path of attack. For the Dwarves of Moria to limit themselves to a single-file egress (either defensive OR offensive) would be the biggest (and strangest) blunder in Middle-Earth military history.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[gamegie]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Therefore there must have been other exits facing in the same direction. However on different levels and maybe concealed and only known by the dwarves.

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Still they had the West door to retreat, with a friendly state of Eregion to back them, and lots of square miles of Moria itself to fight on the well-known grounds with an enemy probably not acustomed to military activities underground, so I hold that bridge was the only way out on the East side of the Hithaeglir.

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Gamegie is think along the lines I'm thinking. But speaking of the west door.... not a very good escape rout if you have to run 40 miles to get to it (or however far ir was). And a determined attacker would attack both ends of the snake.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[HerenIstarion]

To attack from both direction enemy would have had to cross Misty Mountains, which was no more easy than to cross bottomless abyss by one bridge alone, or turn around the mountains from the Ssouth. In both cases it was not possible for such a great army as would be sufficient for attack on Moria to remain unheeded by any (either dwarves or elves leaving both sides of Hithaeglir). In later days Rohan was established to the South, and the task became even harder, even though Hollin was left desolate.

Besides, 40 miles is not such a hard task for stout dwarves, and in their own home-cave for an advantage, where they knew every corner, and enemy must have been blundered and stumbling over roots and things

[Mithadan]

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Durin awoke in Khazad-Dum?

Just by the way, HerenIstarion, per Peoples of Middle Earth, Durin awoke in Gundabad, not Moria. Which begs the question of why the notoriously vengeful dwarves would make war against all the orcs of the Misty Mountains over the death of Thror while allowing the orcs to inhabit the place of Durin's &quot;birth&quot;.

</p>

[burrahobbit]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Moria is too large to have only one door. Dwarves have need of wood, it would be more effecient for them to bring it in close to their forges.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I'd bet the dwarves stoked their forges with coal mined from the earth rather than wood. And planning to defend forty miles worth of tunnels and complex cavern systems (no doubt built with traps, secret ways, and other bottlenecks) seems more likely than the dwarves planning for a mass exodus. And historically, the dwarves have shown themselves to be a proud and stubborn people determined to defend what's theirs even in the face of overwhelming odds. Look at Thorin &amp; Co. holding out against the combined armies of Elves and Men. I'd bet the dwarves who built the place designed it on the principle of defending it to the last dwarf against attackers.

Khazad-dum is like a big castle -- you don't build too many doorways in your castle or else you defeat the purpose of having a castle. Though I think it's likely that there were at least a few hidden and/or difficult to reach auxiliary entrances along the eastern side.

I agree with HerenIstarion's analysis that a combined attack from West and East seems impractical both from a logistical and a strategic point of view.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

A narrow bridge spanning a 'bottomless' pit is a great defense, but a ridiculous obstacle for even normal traffic, let alone 'mass exoduses'. I wonder how many accidental deaths resulted from the bridge over the years. And what about any eporting they may have done out of the Eastern Gate? It was wide enough to take a wagon load of ore out of, but the bridge would force the Dwarves to pack anything out item by item.

Again, I think the bridge was just used for defensive purposes and there must have been other routes, easily sealed or destroyed in case of invasion, used for the more mundane travel that needed to reach the East gates of the caverns.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Voronwe]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Although how would they manage to get a wagonload of ore down the 'huge and age-worn steps' outside the east gate? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">



-Voronwë
"voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Hinting at other eastern exits, Voronwe? <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Voronwe]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

It certainly seems possible that there were other exits apart from the main east gate, though they may have been destroyed later. Compare this to the lonely mountain, which had many ways in and out until Smaug blocked them up.

Of course, there's always the possibility that the dwarves had a bigger bridge that they could remove or destroy during an attack, and that the stone bridge was the only permanent way across the abyss.


-Voronwë
"voyaging the Dark behind the world, a glimmering and fugitive star."</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Gundabad? What about Gimli's poem and Durin going down to see the stars in a lake and stuff?
Can't check it (no books on), take your word for it

As for wagonloads carried along the bridge, is not it true that main trade of Khazad-dûm went with Hollin trough the West Gate?

[gamegie]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I believe Voronwe could have put his finger on it, the dwarves probably had some sort of mechanism enabling a larger platform to bridge the gap. Of which the orcs or Gandalf knew nothing.
The bridge of Kazad Dum being the only permanent structure, it would not have been difficult for people capable of making the Magic door near the Door Watcher to make a moving bridge to enlarge the entrance in the East.

Any views..

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

But there was no Watcher at all at the West Gate in the time of prosperity of the dwarves. Sirannon was blocked only after the fall of Khazad-dûm, wasn't it?

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Correct, Heren-Istarion. The Watcher came later. But that doesn't really have anything to do with gamegie's supposition about bridges and mechanisms. I believe g. was just specifying which Magic door he meant.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[HerenIstarion]

BW, point taken, indeed, remark in my previous was due to sheer nastiness on my behalf. Apologies

But there is still no evidence there were more than one entrances in the East.

[Mithadan]

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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Lets think this through. The dwarves did not grow their own food, but acquired it in trade. They would have the need to be able to load and unload wagons, both of ore and finished products as well as foodstuffs. While Eregion existed, it could be supposed that the West was the primary entrance/exit, so perhaps there would be little need for greater access is the East.

After Eregion fell, this would have changed. The doors were shut and greater access would be required in the East. There are several options. Wagons could have been kept outside the gate and materials loaded/unloaded from shafts via pulleys, or, more likely, there were other entrances. Consider. The orcs of Moria pursued the Company to Lorien after they left Moria. The orcs could not have gone out the West Gate and crossed the mountains via the Dimrill Stair because the Watcher had blocked it. There must have been, at least, a &quot;service&quot; entrance in the East. Of course, the orcs may have built it. Ask not the elves for advise because they will answer both yea and nay.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Earlier I saw a remark about Durin awakening in Moria. Incorrect. He did awaken in Gundabad.

Why does there need to be a service entrance?
The gates are described as GREAT gates. Not narrow single file doors.
As for the broken bridge; the trolls could have easily moved the gangways (or created new ones) to cross the broken section of the span of Durin's bridge.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

The reference to Durin awakening in Gundabad is in HoME 12, which also provides names for the Seven Houses of the Dwarves.

The focus of this discussion is less about how did the orcs follow the Company than about how the dwarves, as a practical matter, got in and out and got their materials in and out on the East side of the mountains. The single file bridge does not seem compatible with a trade based society such as the dwarves. The &quot;service entrance&quot; is proposed keeping dwarven trade in mind. Another possibility is a drawbridge over the chasm (not unlike what the trolls may have done if they had long enough gangways available)which could be raised or destroyed at time of attack on Moria. Such a drawbridge apparently did not exist at the end of the Third Age.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

The trade based society was mostly through the Western side with the Elves of Eregion.

There is no textual evidence of any kind that trade was a major part of dwarven society after the closure of Moria. The alliance of Moria with the Men of Anduin disintegrates at this time.
Celeborn makes reference to the Dark Years, and states that no Dwarf of Durin's line has set foot on Cerin Amroth in a long time. There is reference to communication being severed between Moria, the Iron Hills, and Gundabad at its retaking by Orcs. Moria is said to be near impregnable after its closure.

The East Gates in fact were less friendly to the open world. They had runes warning of prohibition, exclusion and commands that all should depart in all commonly known languages.

(Translation: No solicitation, beware of dog, keep out)

What little trade that 'might' still have existed would have been adequate for the entrance present.

It IS possible to move large objects around using a small passage width, as anyone who has moved freezers into and out of a house doorway knows (and there were no walls on the bridge-span to contend with).

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

And yet 'long ago a great paved way had wound upwards from the lowlands of the Dwarf Kingdom' If the bridge was all Dwarves needed to move in and out of Moria (moving ore, frezers, whatever), I'm surprised a narrow path did not suffice so see them down from the mountains.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
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[Mithadan]

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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Yes, there is a lack of textual evidence of dwarven trade to the East. But one does not have to see the sun to know it rises in the morning. The dwarves grew no food of their own (don't make me look for the cite, its out there) and relied upon trade for basic supplies. Eregion was destroyed and nothing took its place. The East Gate of Moria is shut. The nearest trading partners to the West are distant, even after Gondor comes into being. The nearest trading partners are the men of the Anduin vale and the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood until Gondor and Arnor are formed 1700 years after the fall of Eregion. A single file bridge is not sufficient for passage of wagons.

Either we have some VERY hungry dwarves, or they are trading to the East and if they are trading to the East, there is a way for wagons to be loaded or unloaded and materials to get in and out of Moria. Wagonless caravans? Possible but impracticle. We know dwarves use wagons. Dwarves brought goods to Bilbo's farewell party via wagon.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[dogtrot]

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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

them dwarves is hardy folk. i reckon they could haul all they needed up the mountain and through the back door. even if it was very physical labor. it may seem tiresome work for us but they are dwarves after all.

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

Hey Dogtrot. Long time no see. Hardy yes, but Gimli passed out after carting three canoes down the rapids. Doesn't bode well for dwarves carrying bags of ore or finished metal products. Could be but doesn't make good sense. Dwarves just seem too &quot;efficient&quot;.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I seem to have noticed a growing trend in the downs: as a rule, 50% of dogrots posts are met with 'hey, dogtrot's back', 'where have you been lately?' or as Mithadan has just put it, 'dogtrot, long time no see'.
They could have had an underground canal, where the ore was shipped up to the caverns. Or brought it through on carts pulled by either dwarves or horses.

Usually keeping a lookout over http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabadMount Gundabad</a> and http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi The Barrowdowns</a> Middle-Earth Discussion Boards</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 265</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I was teasing. I was in the chat room with Dogtrot just before I made my post. Canal is possible, but, as Saulotus says, no textual evidence. Wagons are much more likely, but to bring matters full circle they can't get over the Bridge.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 198</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> posted by Mithadan
'A single file bridge is not sufficient for passage of wagons.'<hr></blockquote>
There are steps up to the gates. No wagons went inside the gates.
I think you are confused as to the ingress description and surrounding environment, much as RKittle seems to be about the need for a narrow path OUTSIDE Moria.

The info I supplied earlier is not conjecture, but taken straight from OF DWARVES AND MEN for the most part of it.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> posted by Mithadan
'The dwarves grew no food of their own (don't make me look for the cite, its out there).'<hr></blockquote>
Better look, and make sure its applicable to the period AFTER Moria is closed.
I am not aware of any such 'quote' other than what people have thought was a quote and direct information; same as the idea that the Witch King was Numenorean.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1536</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I certainly wasn't confused, but perhaps my meaning was confusing. I'll clarify.

If traffic was so slow on the Eastern side of Moria,why was such a wide paved way needed down to the 'lower Dwarven Kingdom'? Previous arguments have suggested there was little or no reason for such a road. I say the highway shows evidence of high traffic and thus support for the possibility of secondary exits and/or bridges.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>