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01-25-2004, 08:44 PM | #1 |
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smaug
was smaug the last dragon or the last great dragon ?
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01-25-2004, 08:55 PM | #2 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 19
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I'm pretyy sure he was just the last great dragon.
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01-25-2004, 11:07 PM | #3 |
Pile O'Bones
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Isn't there some mention of cold drakes in the mountains even after Smaug? I could be wrong but I would like to think that he was the last great dragon. But is guess it depends on your definition of dragon.
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01-26-2004, 10:35 AM | #4 |
Ubiquitous Urulóki
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As far as I know, Smaug was the last great dragon. There were probably many bred by Morgoth and I doubt that they were all confined to the northwest of Middle-Earth, like Smaug and Glaurung. There was also Scatha and Ancalagon (sp?) mentioned. I suspect that there were dragons in the east too, and perhaps even in the south. Probably cold-drakes, great worms, and perhaps a couple of the winged sort.
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01-26-2004, 03:32 PM | #5 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Dol Amroth
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I suppose that he was one of the last great dragons, although he is the only one that you hear of having a renowned hoard, which the Dwarves wanted to reclaim. Smaug must have been pretty powerful to have gathered it from the Dwarves and Men in the first place.
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01-26-2004, 05:59 PM | #6 |
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well i checked it in the encyclopedia of arda and it says that smaug was the last of the great fire drakes but wasnt the last fire drake. we no that hes not the last fire drake coz gandalf refers to fire-breathing dragons in the time before the War of the Ring, nearly eighty years after Smaug's death. Tolkien even goes so far as to hint that some of these creatures might have survived to our own times.
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01-26-2004, 11:45 PM | #7 |
Haunting Spirit
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WOW! I love smaug hes my favorite dragon. He was one of the last Drakes as you have undoubtedly read above my post! and whats this about Boromir the disco king i saw???it sounds very halirious!
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01-27-2004, 12:12 AM | #8 |
Haunting Spirit
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Just how old was Smaug anyway? Was he around in the time of Glaurung?
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01-27-2004, 01:20 AM | #9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Well, there is no Smug anywhere except in hobbit and lotr. Then, we can reasonably assume that he was alive but his fame was just shadowed by great might and fame of Glarung and other stronger draogns when the sun was young
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01-27-2004, 07:56 AM | #10 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Quote:
It is possible that Smaug was one of those in Ancalagon's squadron who escaped the fall of Angbad. I think it more likely, however, that he is descended from one (or a pairing of) such escapees, since I believe that he is said to have been in his youth when he first attacked Erebor. Assuming that's right, it is likely that he was the last Dragon of pure descent from the original winged beasts of Ancalagon's horde. I believe that, in one of his Letters, Tolkien indicated that he did not intend that Smaug was the last Dragon, but rather that he was the last of the Great Dragons. Possibly those remaining were the result of inter-breeding between Ancalagon's line and lesser beasts.
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01-27-2004, 08:06 AM | #11 | |
Spectre of Decay
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Quote:
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01-27-2004, 08:44 AM | #12 |
Hungry Ghoul
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Yet we have the Tale of Years note that only two dragons survived the Fall of Angband (cf. HoME XI,3,V). This was post-LR, so Tolkien arguably had Smaug and Scatha in mind.
For reasons beyond my comprehension, this statement has been disapproved on this forum, but I do not see why Tolkien would have such a definite and small number in mind if he wasn't also think of two very concrete dragons. |
01-27-2004, 09:18 AM | #13 | ||
Night In Wight Satin
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Quote:
Quote:
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01-27-2004, 09:20 AM | #14 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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It doesn't follow from the fact that only two Dragons escaped the Fall of Angbad that they were Smaug and Scatha. The escapees may have been a mating pair, or they may subsequently have encountered, and mated with, other Dragons who had emerged from Angbad earlier. Either way, it is quite possible that Smaug and Scatha were their descendants.
Indeed, the quote which Squatter gave (which was the one which I had in mind) actively mitigates against Smaug being one of the Angbad escapees.
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01-27-2004, 11:49 AM | #15 |
Deathless Sun
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How can you specifically say that he was referring to the earlier destruction of Erebor? For all we know, Smaug could have been referring to battles in the First Age, when he definitely would have been "young and tender."
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01-27-2004, 01:48 PM | #16 | ||
Spectre of Decay
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Admittedly that quotation does not in itself indicate what Smaug means by 'of old'. In its proper context it follows the dragon's comments about those likely to want revenge on him: "Revenge! The King under the Mountain is dead and where are his kin that dare seek revenge? Girion Lord of Dale is dead, and I have eaten his people like a wolf among sheep, and where are his sons' sons that dare approach me?". Although this seems to me to imply that 'the warriors of old' are those he killed in taking Erebor, the real key to his age comes a little earlier in the chapter:
Quote:
Quote:
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01-27-2004, 10:50 PM | #17 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I cannot find anywhere, though no doubt it has been discussed and decided on the downs in the past. Where is there evidence of female dragons, more importantly is there any evidence of female dragons who escaped the destruction of Angbad? I always imagined it was Morgoth who had developed the race of dragons himself, rather than choosing good breeding males and females after he had developed the species... it just boggles me to imagine dragons actually mating!
Osse <font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:52 PM January 27, 2004: Message edited by: Osse ]
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01-28-2004, 07:46 AM | #18 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Assuming (as the evidence seems to suggest) that Smaug was not a refugee from Angbad, then Dragons must have some form of propagating themselves without Morgoth's active intervention. So, unless they are hermaphroditic, they must come in both the male and female variety.
The source of Dragons is a thread which touches on this issue. I will stick with what I posted there, although it is (and in all likelihood can only be) speculation: Quote:
<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:17 AM January 28, 2004: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]
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01-28-2004, 08:35 AM | #19 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Saucepan man, that link isn't working for me at the moment. I wonder if anyone has considered the possible connection between the Dragons which survived the fall of Thangorodrim & the 'wild Were Worms who live in the Last Desert' who Bilbo mentions in Hobbit.
Ok, that's possibly a Hobbit legend, without any basis in truth, but Hobbits migrated from the East, & maybe its a tradition based on ancient experience, otherwise, where does the idea come from? The pair of Dragons head east, as far from the Ancient West as possible, breed with what? 'Were-worms' suggests creatures who transform from other creatures. Perhaps they bred with giant lizards, creating a new strain, most of which were not 'true' Dragons, but some of which could be be. |
04-27-2004, 04:11 PM | #20 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Not the last
I am pretty sure that there is an instance in the Hobbit where it is stated that there are more dragon in the mountains of the north and that Smaug is simply the biggest of them. I do not think that he was the last one.
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05-22-2004, 04:20 PM | #21 | ||
Illusionary Holbytla
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09-15-2004, 04:00 AM | #22 |
Wight
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I reckon he was the last Dragon, if he (or another dragon) were known to still exist then they might have actually tried to get the Dragon to melt it but I'm not sure.
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01-10-2005, 08:57 PM | #23 |
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I seem to remember that Scatha was still around at the time of 'the hobbit', up in the withered heath. Wouldn't she count as a great dragon? Or is it that Smaug was the last winged dragon?
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